Hey guys, I have done a search and read all the tax/hacienda type threads, but didn't see an exact mention of this:

If I work somewhere and am on contract, etc, they pay my social security, and then another place wants me to teach some classes, is that legal? They told me that as long as my social security is being paid by my major employer, it doesn't matter, as long as I give them a factura/bill, with the 15% IRPF deducted from the amount, that that is legal. Is this true?

Does anyone know of a person who works in areas like this, to talk to about how to know if I need to pay taxes now, because I have more than one employer, etc?

Thank you guys!

Besos, Joy

Queensita--
I don't have the answer to your question, but I have the exact same question... It's unclear to me how a person with a contrato can legally do freelance work--as far as I know, you can't be both autónoma and under a contract, but I could be wrong.

This is one of the things that Christian has on his list to ask his lawyers the next time they talk. If you find anything out, can you post it here and we'll do the same.

Can I ask a question about your contrato? Do you work a full 40 hours a week or more like half time--20 hours? Have you renewed your work permit--if so, did they require a minimum number of hours per week? Or a minimum amount of Social Security payments contributed? Feel free to PM me if the answers to any of the questions are more of an "off-board" nature.

--Megan

Hi! I have renewed my permit and I dont know the specifics of what you are required to have worked, but you do have to have your VIDA LABORAL, which is the form from the govt that shows how much you have worked and "cotizado" so I did have that, and it seemed to be enough, it was 25 hours a week, or maybe a little less, and I took 2 months off in the summer. Now I'm not sure what I will have, it depends on the answer to the above question! I will post if I find anything out! Besos, Joy

Thanks for the info Queensita. That sounds like just about the number of of hours that the lawyers told Christian he would have to cotizar in order to not raise any red flags the first year or two.

well, sounds like from everyone that I have talked to this week, that it IS technically illegal, but that so many people do it that they dont care and if they ever did investigate things, they would go for major companies first and/or funcionarios. this is the answer I seem to keep getting no matter who I talk to. I have no idea how to take this information. ANy news on your end?

It's to my understanding that this cannot be legally done. In order to bill someone, you need to have a NIF (número de indentidad fiscal) which, when you are registered as autónomo, the same as your NIE.

When you bill, you are creating a paper trail and also having taxes deducted, but since you legally don't exist (as a freelancer) the company cannot file taxes on your behalf which then raises red flags and exposes both you and the employer.

I know that the reverse is possible (being autónomo and also under contract). But you cannot legally bill unless you are registered...

What Chica says is consistent with what I've seen with musicians. There are certain gigs (anything subvencionado by the government, for example) that you can only get if you are official on the books as an autónomo. Some people just sign up as autónomo for those months when they have this type of work (summer festivals, that sort of thing).

I wonder, though, what would happen if you were paying your social security under your regular "contrato"--would you still need to pay the monthly autónomo social security payment? Or would they at least deduct your other SS payments from this amount? Will try to find the answer to these questions...

Queensita--
Talked to the lawyers today and here is what they said.

If you got your work visa for trabajo por cuenta ajena (working for a company), then you can't sign up as an autónomo. The only way that you could legally do so would be to convert to a permiso de trabajo por cuenta propia (working for your self--autónoma), which you can do after one year.

Though to do this looks like a rather long and nasty process when you have a work permit (In Chica's case it would have been much easier--though by no means easy--since she has regular residency).

What I don't understand is whether--after converting--it is possible for a non-EU citizen/resident to work both on a contrato and as autónomo. I will have to go back to the lawyers and ask them.

I also don't understand if this all changes after five years, when the permission to work becomes more or less permanent (changing from tipo B to tipo C) and renewable every five years.

Check out this page--it has a lot of good info on the different kinds of work visas and how long they generally take to process:

http://www.asesores.com/extranjeros/

It seems to me, that all of this lío would be the main benefit for a long-term resident who is not married to a Spaniard (or other EU citizen) to become a Spanish or EU citizen. If you are married to a Spaniard or an EU citizen, then your residency allows you all the same rights and privileges as a Spaniard (with a few tiny exceptions). The same isn't true when you are here with a permiso de trabajo, since your residency is contingent on the fact that you continue to do the kind of work (in a particular field) that your work permit allows.

Ah, but I just reread your initial message. I believe that you can work by cuenta ajena for more than one business--as long as it is in the same field in which they granted the work visa and as long as the business contributed to and withheld your social security.

It sounds like, in your case, this second place doesn't want to put you on the books, but I can't see why they wouldn't, if it were to be a regular thing... Of course doing it on the up and up would also probably translate into less money for you than if you got paid under the table.

Which brings up an interesting question which I haven't seen answered. autónomo vs contract. I was asked by the agency to get my papers in order, which is in process, but I'm going to have to make a decision soon on going free lance or accept a contract.

Their are advanages to both, as an employee you have none of the hassle and get all the benefit Unenployment health care sick leave etc but are limited to there work and only 4 weeks holidays. And I assuming less in the hand (currently 16 an hour cash)

As a freelance you get loads of flexiblity (I was planning on reducing my work load during thes summer) but all the hassle, also you have to file and pay your taxes and SS your self. My main concern is do I have to pay the 260 SS if I'm not working for while?

Any thoughts

Thanks Rob

quote:

My main concern is do I have to pay the 260 SS if I'm not working for while?

My understanding is that, as long as you are registered in the system as an autónomo, you have to pay the social security every month.

But... you can darte de baja (unenroll) for months when you aren't working. I'm not sure how much of a hassle this is, but I do know someone who does this--his work is fairly seasonal and he does this to avoid paying SS when he has a long stretch off. But he's also a Spaniard. A non-EU person probably couldn't get away with this, especially if you were on your first few years of a work permit when you have to justify your earnings and such to renew.

It's a trade-off... freedom vs. money. But, I wonder, even if you are on a contract, will the academy realistically keep you busy through the whole summer?

I'll talked to a few teachers today and they both agreed that unless your earning more than 2000 a month it probalby isn't worth the hassle, secondly although I'm married to an EU passport holder I'm not Spanish and don't know the system (or the language very well). So it would be easy to screw up and do something wrong. So to answer my own question I'll stick to cash or contract.

thanks

I did teaching contracts for the first 3 years here and it worked fine. I didn't really have a need to "go autonoma" until my business(es) started growing to the point where I wanted to bill people at my own rates, and do things other than teach (translation, editing, speaking, etc). If you aren't doing any of those things I wouldn't bother registering either.

Hello,

I'd like to answer 2 points.

1. You can work on contract and be self employed at the same time in Spain. You would however have to pay social security as an employee and as autonomo.

2. You can NOT invoice unless you are autonomo or a limited company. A legal invoice in Spain must have the amount of IVA charged on it. By default you must have an IVA number. This is usually your NIE number for autonomos or your company number for limited companies.

Hope this helps

David

quote:

A legal invoice in Spain must have the amount of IVA charged on it.

However, teaching English is not subject to IVA (VAT). In fact, no forms of "formación" are subject to IVA. So it is possible to generate a legal invoice without charging IVA (VAT). It is NOT possible to generate a legal invoice without the tax ID number which is your NIE if you are autónoma (DNI if you have Spanish nationality) or your CIF/NIF if you are a S.A. or S.L.

Be careful not to confuse everyone!

P.S. Great website David!