Hey gang, this story is gonna floor many of you but it is 100% true.
An American friend of mine who has been living here in Spain for over 6 years (over 4 in Barcelona and now just about 2 in Madrid) got his agenda robbed the other day at a restuarant in Puerta del Sol.
This friend has been illegal here for almost 2 years now (since his student VISA expired).
The stealing of the agenda is by no means the extraordinary part of this story. The shocker is coming up. After realizing that his agenda was missing from the counter when he got up to leave the restaurant (called "Rodilla" and a big target for thieves), he went to the special police station on Calle Leganitos #19 (just between Plaza de Espa�a and Plaza de Santo Domingo) to report the theft.
In his pannic and hurry he did not stop to think that a person residing in Spain illegally should not really go to a police station and offer up all sorts of info on him/herself
After filling out "mucho" paperwork, the officer at the desk asked him for ID. Stupidly he showed his expired student VISA and that was where things started going wrong. The officer noticed that it had expired almost 2 yrs. ago and called him on it. My friend got all nervious as one would in such a situation as the officer started to threaten him and say they were going to send him to the nearest non European Community border (Morocco in this case). When my friend began to get a bit flustered and told him, "Fine, send me off" the police officer went in to his superior's office and came back out all smiley and nice again and began to complete the theft complaint form, never mentioning the throwing of my friend out of the country again.
So, whatever his boss had told him in hte office made it ok for an American (my friend) without papers to live in Spain illegally
I am not saying that if it were a Latin American or African things would have been different (they probably would have ) but this is a perfect, first hand example of how next to impossible it is as an American to get tossed out of Spain and banned from re-entering the EC if caught here illegally.
You wrote it Jer. I didn't. That's probably for the best since I'm an English Academy owner and therefore can't ethically promote nor advertise such a practice as a means to incite the influx of Americans on the Ni�a, Pinta and Santa Maria coming over to Europe on Columbus' ships to seek refuge here as English teachers.
We gringos, Yankees, Americans have a very different perception of 'immigration' and how illegal immigrants are perceived and treated. I know I certainly do after having lived in S. California for 3 years during the 90's.
As you correctly point out Jer, very unfairly, and certainly unfortunately, the same courtesy would probably not have been afforded to an illegal immigrant here in Spain that isn't capable of teaching English to the 'pueblo.'
It's a fascinating paradox for those of us who perceive immigration in a different manner. Well, those are my two Euro cents at least...
poseso.... Tony --- English Unlimited... Un ambiente para aprender ingl�s... (An English Learning Environment)
Posts: 656 | Location: Madrid (Kansas City, USA) | Registered: 06 November 2001
That is a wonderful story and just illustrates the points I made a while ago!
I keep telling North Americans that it is almost impossible to get banned if they live in Spain illegally, and this story is proof of that!
I suppose if one commits a terrible crime (cocaine smuggling or running a prostitution ring) he might get deported but there are boatloads of people living in Spain illegally without too many problems
the first thing for North Americans to understand, before going to a country like Spain is that there are many ways to avoid laws and regulations....just look at the number of Spaniards who work "under the table" and in the "black economy"
In Italian it is called "lavoro nero"....and it is common practice in countries such as Spain and Italy, so get used to it if you are North American !
I can't believe this thread! Encouraging anyone to enter a country illegally is terrible. Sorry to be boring, but what about paying taxes, crucial to help any country's infrastructure? And as for encouraging a black economy - even giving the correct Spanish phrase for it . . . shocking. Reading other sites, we are constantly being told how corrupt Spain is and how poor its people are, and here you are condoning corruption and poor wages (why pay more when u can get a black market worker to work for less?)
I love this site, but please, don't encourage illegal immigrants - no matter what race they are.
Glory, glory to the hibees . . .
Posts: 217 | Location: Madrid | Registered: 19 April 2002
Yeah, apparently he is on a rampage but I do not have to tell you that what a government promises and what it ends up actually delivering or enforcing are two ENTIRELY different things
originally posted by Elizabeth: [qb]I can't believe this thread! Encouraging anyone to enter a country illegally is terrible. Sorry to be boring, but what about paying taxes, crucial to help any country's infrastructure? And as for encouraging a black economy - even giving the correct Spanish phrase for it . . . shocking. Reading other sites, we are constantly being told how corrupt Spain is and how poor its people are, and here you are condoning corruption and poor wages (why pay more when u can get a black market worker to work for less?) [/qb]
Hi Elizabeth,
I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything illegal. I'm merely stating the facts of what it is like, as I've lived in Spain and I just wanted to point out that there are many other stories like the one Jer mentioned.
Regardless of what you have read on other sites, Spanish people are NOT poor. Perhaps Spain not as well-off economically as the UK, USA, or Germany, but it is by no means a "poor" country and its people enjoy a quality of life that people in the aforementioned countries can never enjoy
Furthermore, I stated the Italian term for the black market, which is "lavoro nero"....is there anything wrong with telling people the truth and telling them how things really are, rather than painting a "rosy" picture of how things should be?
I also agree with you that it is better to support one's country by paying taxes and being honest, but do you think for a moment that if most people had a chance to earn cash that they wouldn't do it?
Working "under the table" is something that happens in every country, and this is going to continue to happen regardless of what the government tries to do about it.
At the end of the day, you have to put food on the table....do I think someone is a bad person if they work for cash to support their family? Absolutely not!
Wow! I'm really surprised that this thread took THIS long to liven up as it has today. I expected to happen sooner.
Elizabeth, I really don't think that we are encouraging the practice. I'm not trying to at least. I think we're reporting the facts of the issue first hand.
Like for example, how this subject is SUCH a shocking contrast from what those of us from countries with much stricter stances regarding immigration. (Like yours and mine for example.) You would appear to have confirmed that by your post.
I do take issue with one thing that you say though...
quote:
Reading other sites, we are constantly being told how corrupt Spain is and how poor its people are, and here you are condoning corruption and poor wages (why pay more when u can get a black market worker to work for less?)
What other sites are you referring to? I'm American and have lived in Spain for four years. Though, the two countries are certainly not identical, I don't see Rampid Poverty if that's what you're suggesting by what you say.
Actually, speaking only for my own opinions and observations, I as well as the large quantity of Spaniards that I live and interact with on a daily basis enjoy a very high quality of living. Personally, my quality of living is better here in Spain than it was in the US. Of course, that doesn't mean this will be true for everyone...I'm just talking about my case as a bilingual IT consultant.
BTW, I'm totally legal....for the record!
In any event, it's good to get an 'outside'(...of Spain) observation on the matter. Please keep offering your viewpoint Elizabeth.
poseso.... Tony --- English Unlimited... Un ambiente para aprender ingl�s... (An English Learning Environment)
Posts: 656 | Location: Madrid (Kansas City, USA) | Registered: 06 November 2001
While words might not have been there, the tone seemed to read that way (always the danger of the written word). If that wasn't how it was meant, then my apologies . . .
Check out the (altho I am loathe to name-check it as I now hate it so much) living in spain site. Its message board is full of derogatory comments about poverty and corruption in Spain (altho that always confused me as it never tallied with my experiences of Spain, but cos they were holiday experiences I put it down to that and thought to trust the people who lived there). Which is why I am so pleased to see this site and madrid man's - people enjoying their life in Spain.
Glory, glory to the hibees . . .
Posts: 217 | Location: Madrid | Registered: 19 April 2002
Oh! PS. While in a remote mountain village in Costa Almeria, we saw this elderly woman washing her undies in the village spring (she was a friend of our guide). She may not have had a washing machine - or been able to afford one - but heavens they were the whitest undies I've ever seen With the early morning heat and the mountains and the friendly, friendly village starting to wake up around her, I think I envied her more than she would envy me with my washer-drier and ironing service. And I know that is wearing rose-tinted glasses, but you can shoot me for it as it is one of my favourite memories of my favourite country!
Glory, glory to the hibees . . .
Posts: 217 | Location: Madrid | Registered: 19 April 2002
I checked out that site you mentioned and I'm with you, girl, I hated it too!
I think the problem that many people in that site and others I've talked to who absolutely hated Spain was pure and simple culture shock. ALOT of people from Britain and the USA go to Spain expecting a fairy tale and a life-long holiday. And worst of all they go knowing next to nothing about the culture, the language or the way things are done here--most of which is VERY different from the Anglo-Saxon way of doing things. So, they get here, by the second week the culture shock has them by the throat and they end up hating EVERYTING about Spain, good and bad.
One thing that should send up red flags in your mind is if someone is telling you a horror story about Spain that starts something like; "Oh, the Spanish...." The Spanish? Is it really possible to sum them all up in a few sentences? The differece between a Catalan and a Castillian, an Andaluz and a Gallician, a Murcian and a Basque, they're HUGE, language, customs, outlook etc. So definitely look out for those kinds of stories.
Now it's true that like every country Spain has its hangups and there are certain towns that I wouldn't live in if someone offered to pay me by the hour. (Which shall remain nameless.) But, it's important to remember that as foreign residents it's on us to adapt to the way things are done here and it's also important to do some serious homework on the country to which you are moving so as to lessen the culture shock and just general shock of moving to a new place. Not that I downing Elizabeth, I'm just trying warn people who come here without a clue, or with over inflated expectations as to what they're up against.
Hope I didn't talk too long, bad habit of mine!
Posts: 2 | Location: Dublin,OH USA | Registered: 12 June 2002
I too have checked out the forums on that livinginspain site and I saw loads of the typical "Where can I find an English school for my kids, where can we meet & hang out with other English people, where can we find English food?", etc... posts
Am I the only one who just wants to tell them to STAY IN ENGLAND!!!
This is the typical situation of the ExPat who moves to the outskirts of Madrid and never sees the true Spain nor shows any interest in learning about the Spanish lifestyle and culture
Believe me,kookynkool, i am doing all the research, visits, learning language, reading, talking etc . . . but I know what you mean. One Brit in Nerja told us not to consider moving to Spain because it was too . . . HOT!
Glory, glory to the hibees . . .
Posts: 217 | Location: Madrid | Registered: 19 April 2002
I am new to this great board and a Spanish expat myself who wants to add his two cents.
About Spain being a "poor" country compared to some of its European neighbours, well, Eurostat's statistics show that Spain's GDP per head is only slightly lower than the European average, and that has its historical, geographical, etc. reasons which would probably need another thread themselves. That doesn't make it a poor country, and the facilities and services, as well as the quality of living stated before, are as high (or sometimes higher) as in any EU country. Of course we have our share of poverty, like anywhere else. I wouldn't say either that Spain is a corrupted country, although we have our share too, but no more than the countries surrounding us.
I really feel sad about the attitude of the people in sites like Living in Spain, as going or moving to another country requires an open mind and a positive attitude (I know it by experience), and these people just don't have it or, what's worse and sometimes even truer, the don't want to have it.
That are my two cents
Posts: 2 | Location: Edinburgh (Scotland) via Gij�n (Spain) | Registered: 13 June 2002
) but this is a perfect, first hand example of how next to impossible it is as an American to get tossed out of Spain and banned from re-entering the EC if caught here illegally.
- rent or buy a cell phone from me for your stay in spain, more info at 
- already have a cell phone, get a spanish SIM card for it at 
