Hear, Hear....Trasgu has joined the board! Now, that's a first post that's worth reading.

No seriously, I perfectly agree with your sentiments. Notch another one up to First Hand experience I guess!

Welcome aboard Trasgu! And it was definetly two cents well worth making (or should that be "twa pee" now you're in bonnie Scotland? )

Perhaps you can help me out. I'm desperately looking for a new Spanish tutor as my old (and dearly loved) one has had to move to Luton. You don't know of anyone who could help (or are looking for a few extra pennies)?

This is what I have been telling people all along, that the information on such web sites is 90 percent of the time at least partially inaccurate (sometimes totally inaccurate).

Most people who post messages on such web sites are either disgruntled foreigners who expected Spain to be a fairy tale experience, or absolutely spoilt brats who are upset that Spain is nothing like the USA or the UK.

The best way to find out about Spain is to speak with people who live there now or who have lived there and have a good understanding of Spanish culture and life and the Spanish economy

In other words, speaking with people who have gone to Spain for a holiday won't accomplish very much

Most expat web sites, are, unfortunately, complete rubbish....and should be avoided.

My apologies if this sounds harsh, but you have to be told the truth

If you want real and accurate advice about Spain, try contacting the many people on this message board who actually know something....i.e., TonyTorero, BAS, Jer, etc....

Cheers

Endrigo

Thanks tonytorero and Elizabeth for the warm welcoming!

I just wanted to throw a bit of light on the topic, as I have lived in different countries and had different experiences. They were my "twa pee"
Anyway, people who bitch about everything without any good (real) reasons don't impress me a lot, he he
Elizabeth, I think you should be able to find a new tutor by looking for ads on the universities' message boards, or even at adds on window shops and internet cafes. I have seen quite a few for Spanish exchange and tuition. Good luck!

quote:

This is the typical situation of the ExPat who moves to the outskirts of Madrid and never sees the true Spain nor shows any interest in learning about the Spanish lifestyle and culture

Ouch jer! That comment was waaaay too general. Are you saying that the outskirts of Madrid aren�t the TRUE SPAIN? Last time I checked, the Spanish border did not just encircle Madrid.

Spain has many facets, many cultures and many parts that make it the TRUE Spain. Enjoying center city Madrid is just a small part of it. (I know, I know, it�s a multimadrid board...but let�s not make the mistake that many expat websites do about making sweeping generalizations).

I know plenty of expats (and Americans who have traveled) that never get the true feel for a country (Spain or otherwise) even though they are in the "thick of the city". Plenty of expats live in Madrid and only go to American or Irish bars/restaurants, stay at American hotel chains, hang out with other English speaking expats, refuse to learn the language despite living here a long time, etc. On the other hand, I have had the opportunity to interact with those (not expats) living on the outskirts of Madrid and find them every bit as Spanish as those who live in the city.

Remember, barbacoa is more than an American past time!

Hey Becks, I guess I should have known better then to be sooo general.

Basically I was referring to those Expats who live out in La Moraleja, Pozuelo, etc... and who isolate themselves from "Spain". They find only American or British circles to move in, send their kids to American or British schools and many times never even learn Spanish. I know quite a few who have been here for 10 years and have not made it past "hola", "adios" and the occasional "gracias", all pretty sad in the end. Yes, it is my opinion that La Moraleja, Pozuelo de Alarc�n and many other "new" urbanizations are not "Spain", sorry but that it the way I feel.

I think you may have taken my comment personally living out in Segovia and all, sorry about that but you by no means enter into the "type" I was referring to, after all, you even married a "macho ib�rico"

Saludos,
jer...

Hey jer!

No, actually I didn�t take your comment personally and thought that you�d think that I would. (ufff my English...did that make sense??!!)

Anyway, what I was trying to express are two points:

1. There is true Spanish life in La Moraleja and Pozuelo whether we want to admit it or not. It�s just not the romaticized life that we imagine such as tapeando until the madrugada and paseando in the Retiro or Plaza Mayor. One family that I teach sends their daughter horseback riding every Wednesday afternoon. Something that I am sure most families living in downtown Madrid don�t do, but it is something that all the Spanish girls in her neighborhood do. I am sure the expats do something along those lines as well. In towns like La Moraleja and Pozuelo, the game is more about keeping up with the Garcias ( ) than making the best tortilla. They are the see and be seen areas.

2. There are plenty of isolated expats in Madrid and other large cities. They do nothing to integrate themselves into the Spanish culture. You see them in packs hanging out in the terraces of McDonalds...hanging out with other English speaking Expats, downing the Irish beers, reading the Broadsheet etc.

Anyway, I�m rambling. Just wanted to call you on the carpet for your generalization which is not characteristic of you!

I hear ya knockin' Becks and I agree that there is true Spanish life in La Moraleja and Pozuelo, I do not deny that but mean to say that the isolated circles of the expats who do not live that Spanish life are the bad way to go. I really think that the vast majority of them do not experience the true Spanish life that you refer to.

Thanks "por pararme los pies" on that nasty generalization

Saludos,
jer...

Thanks Becky...Until your post, I was embarrassed to say I lived in Villaviciosa. Now that you've pumped suburban pride back into the board, I can say it loud and say it proud again: I LIVE IN THE BURBS AND I'M TOTALLY INTEGRATED INTO THE SPANISH CULTURE!!

Sorry, I'm just being my goofy self like always. :lo: I do, however agree with the point you you want to make though.... You will most definately learn more about the Spanish culture 'tapeando' at 'el rinc�n de Pablo de Trujillo' than waiting in line for the double decker tourist bus at Plaza de Espa�a.

Thanks, trasgu, will give it a go!

Good luck Elizabeth

Saludos,
jer...

I know this topic is now pretty old but I just found it and I can't believe half of what I read. What is this NONSENSE about English people coming over here, not intergrating, using English schools and not socialising with Spaniards ? If they really really didn't want to be here they wouldn't be here would they ?

Lets get serious, if you can afford to live in, for example, La Moraleja you sure as hell didn't wake up one morning in rainy old England and decide to move to Madrid !

You live there because your company sent you to Madrid, you are only going to be here for a year or two, you can't afford a private tutor for your kids so you have to send them to an Enlish school so that (a) they can understand whats going on and (b) they follow the British National Curriculm, you need to live near the school, you want a garden (being English, you NEED a garden)and the relocation agent your company uses found you a very nice house in La Moraleja.

I know it is frustrating when people visit/move to a country and don't completely immerse themselves in a truly authentic 'local experience' but sometimes there are circumstances which prevent that. (BTW none of the above applies to me but I get cross at the undercurrent of 'if you don't live within half a mile of the Plaza Mayor you've never been to Madrid' that sometimes rears it's head on this board. )

On a different note it is probably worth pointing out to non-British members here that the EU has a pretty poor image in England - don't know about Scotland. The English media is forever harping on about how much money Britain, France and Germany give to the EU and how much of that money the EU gives to countries such as Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece. There is virtually no advertising of the fact that projects such as the jubilee line extension in London or many roads in Ireland and Cornwall were funded by the EU . This tends to make English people visiting countries such as Spain and seeing the massive EU investment in the road system or the Metro seethe.

I know such attitudes are bigoted, ignorant and wrong, Britain is at the moment still a net receiver from the EU (ie it receives more than it provides) but it probably won't be for long and there is a huge groundswell of opinion in England against the EU.

Now I'm not saying that any of the above justifies the sort of comments you get on other sites but let' s look at the whole picture here before condeming all English people.

As a fan of Spain who has lived & worked illegally there (now at home in California awaiting the outcome of an attempt to obtain Permiso de Trabajo) I feel compelled to respond in regards to someone viewing an American living illegally there as bad for the country in some way. I hope to be agreed with, or educated on the matter. My view is this, while living there I lived on a budget of about US 750 a month. With this I noted that I spent more (i.e. pumping MORE money into the economy) then almost every Spaniard that I knew. That�s a good thing, no?
As an American in Spain without residence, you pretty much have only two working options, teach English or pick up glasses at a bar. The majority of schools want only NATIVE speakers and as far as the bar work is concerned, it doesn�t take to long to figure out that this work is available because most Spaniards don�t want it (i.e. I never felt like I was taking a locals job) additionally I was unable (nor would I have) to be a draw on ANY public services like healthcare or the like. In summary, from an economic standpoint, I feel that my presence there was a benefit not a detractor.

Hi fiona. Concerning one point you made:

quote:

You live there because your company sent you to Madrid, you are only going to be here for a year or two, you can't afford a private tutor for your kids so you have to send them to an English school so that (a) they can understand what�s going on and (b) they follow the British National Curriculum, you need to live near the school, you want a garden (being English, you NEED a garden)and the relocation agent your company uses found you a very nice house in La Moraleja.

You're absolutely right that a person falling into this category that you mention shouldn't have to make as much integration effort as someone else who is presently staying here without a definite return date at present.

However, it seems to me that it would be an enormous pity to live in a foreign country for a period of time and isolate yourself so much that you protect yourself and your children from learning something new that very well could help them look at the world with different eyes. Couldn't that little effort potentially do a lot to help us combat the ignorance and bigotry that exists in this world right now?

Also please understand that, for those of us that have made the exceptional effort that is required to learn the language as well as integrate ourselves into the life that the rest of the locals here lead, we often pay the price for the closed minded mentality found in a large percentage of English speakers that come to Spain either as tourists or in the group that you mentioned.

I for one often times feel like a bit of a Cultural Ambassador trying to express to Spaniards that people from English speaking cultures aren't exclusively interested in their own cultures, we're also pretty good, open people and that most of us are in fact interested in learning about things that aren't purely English, American, Irish, etc... COMFORTABLE!

I understand well that my rant is getting off the original subject of the thread, but what are you going to do...Conversations do that and this is precisely what we've all achieved with this thread...an interesting, cultural conversation. Keep posting!

Being a stranger in a strange land (ok, it's Scotland and I'm originally from England, but believe me, its very, very different), I couldn't agree more with TonyT. By staying aloof, you give rise to all sorts of stereotypes. In Edinburgh, we get so many southern English, upper class students here who don't want to mix properly, invade the bars during England-Scotland games and talk about Scotland in such derogatory terms that I feel like constantly apologising (and yes, I know this is a two-way process and that there are many Scots who do exactly the same in England).

Anyway, getting back to the point Mixing in a another country gives you so much more that I can't understand anyone wanting to remain isolated. I still have all my English idiosyncracies (like sugar in my porridge . . . ), so integration doesn't have to mean abandoning who you are.

There are many elements of Spanish life I can't wait to embrace if/when we move across, but there are some that I won't (I think its great that children are allowed in bars, but not at 11pm ).

Which is all totally off the point, but boy do I feel good for getting it off my chest.