I don't know Pim...Isn't mating in animals by mutual consent? And maybe sportfishing is cruel too...I once caught a hammerhead shark by mistake and let it go and my friend going with me, who was the fisherman, wanted to kill me for doing so! What do ya think?

Mating and killing for fun are two entirely different things! Sportfishing, hunting, and anything that involves killing animals for fun should be outlawed.

Question to Saenz
do you wear leather shoes and belts? Do you eat meat, fish or eggs? If you are vegan, maybe plants feel pain too. It seems to me you went a little overboard on this theme.
That is not to defend anything. Just an observation.

Car accidents should be outlawed, too...

quote:

I don't know Pim...Isn't mating in animals by mutual consent?

Hi Rafa...Well, I don't know guys. I mean, just the other day I was at my W.A.R.P. support group... You know...Wallabies Against Rape 12 Step Program. I was with this really cute wallaby that had just been assaulted by a male wallaby with a really sharp acorn and forced into a truly brutal act that was most certainly NOT consensual. Poor Gisela. If you'd only seen her, you'd have shed a tear... I mean, look. Here's a pic of the poor girl:

She's half the wallaby she used to be.

I'm obviously attempting to bring some light-heartedness back into this thread. Dude, Saenz... that's very cool that you have a conviction against cruelty against animals. I don't have a problem with that at all, but do you really think that the multimadrid forum is the right place to try and make your statement and convince us all to start lobbying our local government reps?

Like I said previously, I'm no big fan of bull-fighting either, but I hardly think that I would be successful if I tried to start a militant anti-bull-fighting brigade on a message board that's deals with mostly touristy sorts of subject-matter. I mean, what would I hope to achieve by that?

I hope you keep posting a ton brother, however I just hope you realize that these particular sentiments probably aren't going to go over tremendously well here. If you want to ask jer to create a new category or two dealing with these types of issues, ask him to do so.

If you're as cool a guy as you seem to be, I don't think you'll take this the wrong way. I'm just reacting here to a common sentiment I've seen in a lot of your posts for some time now.

As the one who innocently began this thread over 2 months ago, I agree with Tony that it has gone way over the top and perhaps JER should consider a category debating the "political correctness" of things Spanish. As I believe I responded before, I would not want season tickets to bullfights and nor would I want them for boxing, cockfighting,etc. But I feel it must be admitted that the bullfight is an aspect of Spanish culture to be explored. No one is being forced to attend or agree or support. But as the parent of two kids who had studied cultural things in their Spanish classes, seeing a bullfight was a must-do on our Spanish adventure. Enough said

Actually I do wear leather belts. My shoes are of man made materials like rubber and suede. The belts are a by product of cows that are used for food. You are not trying to justify bullfighting are you? Yes I eat meat. You do understand that killing animals for food and for fun are two different things?? No need to become defensive, I'm just stating an opinion.

Cathy, please do not regret having starting this thread just because it has gotten a bit heated. It is a god thread and you could not have hit the nail more on the head when you said that "But I feel it must be admitted that the bullfight is an aspect of Spanish culture to be explored".

Saludos,
jer...

Hi Saenz, ummmm... your post is 2 up!

Saludos,
jer...

p.d. if anyone turns this into an ugly thread or I will bann their "culo" from my board for life

Hi I just wanted to say (or to clarify rather), just in case, that I, personally, haven't felt offended or shocked at all by any of the comments made by anybody in this thread. Everyone is INDEED entitled to their opinions about our culture (as long as....they don't defend ETA or something!!! ).

pim

(So, after all, maybe the remarks about a "heated" discussion, etc....were mainly addressed to that "mating" comment that I confess I didn't quite get, (he, he)?!

Glad we are al playing nicy nice again

Saludos,
jer...

Pim:

quote:

But can you name an activity where the animal that participates is "asked" if he/she wants to take part of it?, there is none, not even frisbee ! (just kidding!

The "mating" comment was a reaction to the above comment which I considered very funny! I thought maybe "mating" in animals was mainly of the mutual consent type, but Tony Torero got into the right groove of making light of most likely silly, sometimes very human behaviour, and showed us a good humored "exception"

The main thrust is that human foolishness unfortunately cannot be "outlawed" to fit our likes and dislikes, especially if it's a traditional cultural event like "bullfighting". I once read a Madrid newspaper article that mentioned how bullfighting was dying due to an increasingly lack of interest by newer generations of Spanish males. However, it had been rescued by a mainly female increase in audience. The obvious reasons? Apparently according to the article females were becoming increasingly more able to express their admiration towards, not only the courage and "buena faena" of the bullfighter, but other physical attributes that are part of the "package" deal; or "parte del paquete" in Spanish. Therefore, bullfighters becoming openly admired sex symbols were the reason a dying cultural tradition had been rescued.

What's the truth behind this, Pim? Being a madrile�a yourself, you probably have an interesting insight into this topic.

Actually, I hate anything that deals with killing animals, sportswise or any other way, however, I have a profound respect for cultural traditions, such as bullfighting. And there's always surprising twists of fate that cause an otherwise dying tradition to rise again, like it was mentioned in the above mentioned newspaper article.

Anyone with a good grasp of the sociological impact increased female participation has had on the "Fiesta Nacional"?

Peace and Love to all!!!

quote:

Peace and Love to all!!!

...And with that, i believe that we can most likely conclude this thread that has, pardon the pun, been full of a lot of bull!!

In the name of 'El Juli', 'Cristina S�nchez' & the 'Santo Encierro'... AMEN!!

Hey Rafa, good to have you back on the board participating as a "regular", we missed you during your absence

I also enjoyed tonytoreros humorous aside

Rafa, I love the turn you have given to this thread.

I am not a woman nor a Spaniard but I would like to give you my take on the increased attendance of woman at bullfights.

The "paquete" motivation to see the sex simbol toreros in their tight pants is definitely a factor no matter how many Spanish ladies may deny it (while red in the face :b: ).

I saw a show on the boob tube the other day and they had gone to Marbella (playground for the Spanish rich and famous) with the TV cameras since 3 or 4 toreros were at the same beach at the same time. They shot them from afar in their "ba�adores marcapaquetes" as they call the tight speedos here in Spain that literally "mark the package" That part of the show was ALL the gals were talking about here the next day.

Also, if you go to a bullfight, you will see that most of the women attending are middle aged or older. I feel that a lot of them go to be with their husbands. I think they got tired of seeing their men disapear every Sunday afternoon and felt that they should be spending that time together. I think it has a lot to do with the old saying, "if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em".

I know that this is a fact in the case of Ena's mom. She really doe snot like bullfights but found herself going more and more with her husband in order to spend that nice Sunday afternoon with him.

Just my opinion, take it for what it is worth.

Saludos,
jer...

Hate to burst your bubble, Saenz, but "suede" is leather(at least the real stuff is). They make Hush Puppies where I live---out of pigs, not puppies!

And lots of cows do not mate consensually---artificial insemination is the rule, not the exception with a lot of livestock. "Consensually" kind of presupposes that they CAN consent. Animals are sentient(aware and feeling)but instinctive rather than motivated by thought. They kill each other without one twinge of conscience, some species even eating their own young(pigs, again)

I have to put in my two cents' worth about animal cruelty. My family has killed 22 deer, and not one of us used a gun or a bow. Car/deer incidents have cost us lots of car repair money---or at least they cost the insurance company. Why, our VW Rabbit was killed outright by a deer. It's a pity, but it has to do with urban sprawl and habitat destruction, as well as the absence of predators other than man.

Managed hunting is an absolute necessity in Michigan or we would be overrun with the whitetail deer. A quick bullet has to be better than starvation over the winter, don't you think? In the school district where my husband taught, venison is a staple in the diet of the rural poor, and it's better for you than grain-fed beef.

Blood "sport" is as old as man, and probably has as much to do with eating and survival as anything, When my daughter and I attended a bullfight(I've been to three total in my 40 year love affair with Spain) we walked out long before it was done, and saw the bull just killed being butchered. It was an unpleasant reminder that those nice plastic-wrapped packages in the supermarket aren't that far from killing animals, though one would hope it is usually done in a human fashion.

As for the beach displays, my girl students always professed to be "grossed out" by speedos in general, and were more comfortable admiring male behinds (also highlighted, no pun intended, in the "traje de luces") Anyway, I favor the "chance to bond with mate" explanation.