As human beings, I believe that it is our duty to not destroy other animals at will. I hope the 22 deer were the result of accidents. You're being overrun with deer because you are in THEIR habitat! Non-human animals have as much right to our land as humans.

I'm really torn on this issue. I agree with Jer, that bullfighting is part of Spanish culture, and it's up to Spaniards to decide whether it should continue. After seeing how animals raised for food are killed in slaughter houses here in the US, I'm not to certain it's any more humane in many respects. I'm afraid our "need for meat," of which I'm as guilty as anyone, has caused us to turn our backs on the reality of how things are handled. It's difficult to tell Spaniards their ways are bad, when ours are just as questionable, whether we live in Spain, the US, or any other nation.

It doesn't matter which side of the issue you stand on, unless you're a pure vegetarian, and refuse to use any products that are associated with animals, you're at least a little guilty in keeping the system going, as is.

About the only issue that separates slaughter houses and the bullring that I can see is the pain that is inflicted on the bull in the bull ring, before it's actually killed. That, combined with the fact that the man who is supposed to make the kill may have to plunge a sword into the animal several times, before it dies.

I don't like bullfights. Would never attend one. But I can't be a hypocrite either, since I enjoy meat on my table.

Like Jer says, play fair. You can't sway opinion by slamming.

JP

Thank you all for your inputs!

That's why is so enjoyable to share all these moments with you...thanks, again!

Any more opinions?

Yes, I'd like to comment on the 'paquete' issue. Boys, you sometimes forget that....WOMEN AREN'T LIKE THAT!!! We couldn't care less about the "bulkiness" of a guy we don't have anything to do with; it's just different for us, we don't have the same visual enjoyement capacity you seem to enjoy quite often.

It's true CERTAIN women do like the 'toreros' and are attracted to the kind of lifestyle related to the world of 'toros', but that's just like admiring, or even being turn on, by soccer and football players, NBA stars, politicians, or....sumo wrestlers!!!

Jer, do you appreciate this change of subject?

JP, you're right on the "where-does-everybody-who-eats-meat-think-it-comes-from?!" issue. And I'm positive no animal that is sacrificed to become a steak or a hotdog dies a pleasant death (let's face it!)

Hey, I told you all that the Spanish gals were going to ring in and deny that the 'paquete" attracts them

Ok, pim, you are a lady but are still human. Also, I hear ya if you say that you do not look towards that part as the attractiveness of a man but don't say "we" when you deny it as if you were representing all the ladies oput there for Ena fell off the couch laughing when I read her your phrase...

quote:

WOMEN AREN'T LIKE THAT!!! We couldn't care less about the "bulkiness" of a guy we don't have anything to do with; it's just different for us, we don't have the same visual enjoyement capacity you seem to enjoy quite often.

So, while I will have to take your word for it in your case, I think you are just too shy to admit the truth

COME ON! A NICE BODY IS A NICE BODY! WHETHER YOU ARE A GUY LOOKING AT A GAL OR VICE VERSA!

I will admit that women do not dwell on it as much (the physical aspect and all) but to say that women don't have the same visual enjoyement capacity is silly

Why is it that when a hunky guy is on TV the ladies start in with "�Qu� t�o!", "�T�o buuuuueeeenooooo!, etc...

Some may say that they do it in jest but there is always a little bit of truth deep down, right?

Saludos,
jer...

Jer,

I'M A WOMAN, I have lots of friends, two sisters, co-workers, etc....you're NEVER going to convince me!

SORRY guys, real life ain't a porn flick. (too bad, uh?)

I repeat: generally speaking, we are not interested in the atributes of any guy other than the one we are with (unlike yourselves), about which, btw, we only care about in certain intimate ocassions, so unless we mean to really be silly, party hard, have some laughs amongst other girls, etc....and celebrating a b-day or a bachelorette party, we go to some sort of "Chippendale-like show", we never act as "loud voyeurs".

Jer, I never said looks aren't important!, you know I was speaking of a very specific area of male anatomy.

I'd only agree with you in that I've visited some places (I'm thinking of London for example), and met girls who seemed slightly more concern about "the issue", and others like the size, shape, etc....of their own attributes, than us (again, generally speaking), but I blame that on the culture we're all in; I mean, some british TV shows, or the Cosmopolitan British issue are way bolder, and explicit-sex oriented than the Spanish....I may be wrong, but in my view, yes, the Mediterranean culture blows these things less out of proportion than others. And I think our reactions are more natural and less fabricated. You can say it's because of the religious burden, I don't think so, NorthAmericans are probably more religious than us nowadays and (because they can't get into bars and discos maybe), American teenager 'chicas' are a little bit wilder....

I guess I can go on an on about this, I was a senior in an Ohioan H.S.!, and have travelled to London often for the last four years. Just don't get me started on Spanish men!!!, ha,ha,ha!

Saluditos,

pim

P.S.: We're different, but that is GOOD, that is why we complement each other.
And ladies, what do YOU have to say?

JP: There is just something about torturing an animal to death for "fun" that I find objectionable. What is the purpose of a bullfight? What is the purpose of a slaughterhouse? I'm not slamming anybody, I'm just stating an opinion.

I have followed this thread for a while now. I personally enjoyed the corrida, but for its cultural and artistic quality.
What I cannot conceive is that some people attribute human qualites to an animal. This is not to downplay the intrinsic cruelty of the bullfight. The animals are especially raised for this particular spectacle. No, they have no choice in the matter, no more than a Jabugo pig does.
To be offensive and ugly to someone who thinks differently only shows lack of ability to listen to another side. We are each entitled to an opinion, right or wrong. Opinions are thoughts.
I can only conclude that some people who visit this site are teenagers who are self-righteous and opinionated from lack of experience in life.
As one of the "senior citizens" who visit this web page, I find it interesting that there are those who post messages with a shrillness and lack of common courtesy.
A good debate or conversation has rules. And the chief rule is courtesy and allowing each person to speak his mind without making a personal attack. When you have to resort to personal remarks, you have lost the debate. Facts win a debate, not ugliness.

quote:

P.S.: We're different, but that is GOOD, that is why we complement each other. And ladies, what do YOU have to say?

AMEN!! I just stopped at a cyber-caf� in Santiago de la Ribera on the Mediterranean coast where we've come to celebrate Anissa's fifth birthday. I came in just to check email as well as my two favorite Forums (jer's and mine). I promised myself that I wouldn't be any longer than 5-8 minutes, but this thread seems to keep calling me back again and I spent more time than I bargained for digesting the multiple interesting points of view offered over the last few days. But pim, yours take the cake!

Pim, I absolutely loved the candor and insight that you've offered with your last couple or three posts! You've put into words what others no doubt have been thinking and you did it in a manner that left me here with a perpetual stupid smile on my face. Well done!

I would refer to you as 'pim, the Madrile�a who taught us all how women really feel about 'paquetes,' but I'm not sure that would go over too well with my wife! :b: Ah, who cares!! Great post! You've certainly taught me a lesson or two! Not to mention, you've convinced me to scrap any notion I had of pursuing a second career nor as a torero or as a Chipendale's dancer!

WHAT?! Oh wow, I'm so embarrassed! Please, don't call me that!

Seriously now, thanks Tony.

But I'd like to go back to the original subject, there's something I feel I must have confessed a while ago, but I kept forgetting. I hate 'las corridas de toros' but....my parents met at one!

Have a nice end of the 'fin de semana' everyone! I'm meeting Jo-Anne and her hubby for tapas, sorry Jer you can't make it because it's "chat nite".

Tony my man, cool to see ya checking in, which cyber you going to? I have a feeling I was at the same exact one a few weeks ago since we seem to be "summering" in the same town this year

There are 2 there on the same street, one filled with net games called "Navegago" or somthign and the other called "Neaveganet" (I think) with less kiddies and air conditioning which is the one I went to while there.

Saludos,
jer...

p.d. Yeah pim, sorry no good on the "tapeo" tonight, who eles is going? Let us know how it was and where you went? Maybe next time. I just got back from a cool down day at the University Complutense swimming pool with Ena and am all ready to chat!

Ok, Pim, thanks for your opinion! It's very consistent with someone that likes and recommends the movie "Amantes del C�rculo Polar" and whose parents are "Amantes del C�rculo Toral", since they met at a Plaza de Toros, as you admit. ...connections, connections...! You've done yourself proud!

I agree there's a lot of people that are more interested in the "aesthetics of feelings" rather than, and exclusively, the "aesthetics of form" Your answer makes you look good!

However, has bullfighting really been saved by an increase in female audience that has to do with other factors, other than "paquete", or otherwise related? Was it ever in danger of dying?

Jer, I'm glad you are squeezing the serum of truth out of this one, but it's natural to assume that there are many tastes and opinions on this topic...Feliz Tapeo to all those that would prefer "lidiar" with a "patata brava" rather than a "bravo toro de lidia" Salud!

Interesting discussion on relative attention to the body. My friend Paco Alvarez, who married an American woman and moved here, said his mother used to have to stand at the edge of the sand and put a bathrobe on him to keep him "decent" during the Franco years. Now, I have seen young girls and boys in Spain, suitless, washing off the sand and sea salt under beach showers together. Here in the States, people are so concerned about pedophiles that even little babies have beach diapers....a sad state(though it keeps their little bottoms from getting sunburned!)

Hey Pim & All!

I have to say that I agree with you in references to the men thing, but regarding "los Toros" I love it... Hello All! was up with you guys... "Toros" means to Spain like Marboro or Wistons cigarettes to The US... and they both could kill you, couldn�t they?

Anyway, I do like "Toros" and I�d love to explain to all of you that still don�t know that munch about it... "First know what is the subject about and then give me your own opinion"

Hey,Tony! My man... Happy B�day to Anissa!!!

Saludos,

Hey everyone...I'm back in Madrid since I have to work tomorrow... I've been left 'Home Alone' for the week while 'las chicas' soak up the sun at the beach!! Oh well.... I will survive!

Hey jer...Yes!! That's the exact same cyber caf� I was writing from! I think we need to hook them up for multisantiagodelaribera.com ! That might be a mouthful though. I saw the other place you mentioned too. It resembled a McDonald's playground with computers too much for me though too which is why I chose the other, more relaxed location.

Thanks for the birthday well wishing for Anissa, Rachel23!! I won her a big stuffed animal from the carnival at Lo Pagan to celebrate. She loved it! I'll be sure to give her a 'beso de tu parte.'