The so-called Tesoro de Le�n (treasure of Leon) is a collection of medieval pieces kept in San Isidoro. It�s also worth a visit: http://www.sanisidorodeleon.org./visita_tesoro_eng.htm#
The most famous piece is probably queen Urraca�s chalice:

I'm jumping in late, too, but want to add a caveat to visiting Le�n. It isn't what it used to be. Most travelers to northern Spain are expecting uncrowded, clean cities. While Le�n is relatively "undiscovered" [lamentably...], it is quite "unclean".

Please do not misunderstand me, as I relished my stay in Le�n as a pilgrim on the way to Santiago. There is [too] much to see, and the senses are filled at every turn. I just found it a little too industrialized/Pittsburgh-y in places.

If you can't afford lodging at the San Marcos, I recommend a 3-star about two blocks down the street called the Hotel Quindos. It's a quirky little place, very reasonable, and located fairly centrally to the Parador and religious sites [along with the Casa Botines, etc.].

I can't wait to get back, and again, I've only added this in so that those fortunate souls who travel to Le�n will have an additional perspective on what to expect.

P.D. Of course Le�n is a wonderful beginning to what lies west in the region: Astorga, Ponferrada, el Bierzo...ah, to sup again the cocina maragata! :cheers:

Leon is still one of my very favorite places in Spain.The cathedral there beats hollow that famous Gothic masterpiece of Chartres, at least on a sunny day. The fully pedestrianized plaza mayor is one of the truly European places in Spain. There's a Gaudi town hall with fantasmagoric iron work. There are fine hotels, and forgettable hotels, and everything you'd expect in between. It IS a city, after all, but with a much more open, liberal feel than, say, Burgos -- that uber-conservative cold place a few miles east. Big enough to have a Corte Ingles, small enough to walk through comfortably.

La Bicha, in the old San Martin square, is a little stall with incredible morcilla and fried mushrooms. There's an Italian-influenced little pension right on San Isidoro square with a restaurant downstairs and a patio full of tables.

It's all right on el Camino de Santiago, so the entire world passes right through.

The only thing this city lacks is a decent launderette! If/when I end up in Spain, I hope to live in driving distance of Leon.

Rebekah

Sensis,

Great thread! Your city is lucky to have such an informed ambassador. I've been in Le�n four times and each time I found a new gem. �Es una ciudad encantadora!

I am quite interested in the traditional latin based tounges, so I have a question for you. I saw the graffitis written in Leon�s, but I have never heard it spoken. Do most Leoneses learn the traditional language? I do know that it is related to Bable, and I did hear a liitle bit of that whilst in Asturias. Do you know any links with some basic Leon�s lessons?

�A�pa Pucela!

That's a good point Euskald�n. Maybe some of the places in the city crossed by the route to Santiago are not very clean and "industrialized", specially when you leave the town heading West between Trobajo del Camino and La Virgen del Camino because there's a "pol�gono industrial". But I think the central areas of the city -both the historic old town and the new town (ensanche and other areas of recent contrsution) are kept fairly clean. It's true, on the other hand, that the new town has also suffered the effects of the massive, hurried and aesthetic-less construction of flats which affected most cities in Spain during the 1960's. This has left as a result many ugly neighbourhoods, but The Camino de Santiago doesn�t cross any. (Maybe on the other side of San Marcos' bridge, but those neighbourhoods belong to a different council (Ayuntamiento de San Andr�s del Rabanedo). As regards Le�n being "industrialized", I wish it were so. It is precisely industry what Le�n lacks. If there was more industrial activity (factories, etc), Le�n would be able to grow and develop better infrastructures, and more work; and people wouldn�t have to leave the province to find better opportunities somewhere else.
I also agree with you that Le�n is just the beginning (if you go westwards) of a breathtaking and wonderful landscape: La Vega del �rbigo, La Maragater�a (with Astorga, the capital), Los Montes de Le�n (Molinaseca, la Cruz de Fierro,...), El Bierzo (Undoubtedly, The jewel of Le�n's Crown!!; the richest and most beautiful and truly leonese of it's regions).
Talking about El Bierzo, it is interesting to point out that people's accent there resembles Galician a lot because of its proximity with Galicia and because the asturleon�s substratum hasn�t been so much eroded by the influence of Castellano as it has happened in other areas of Le�n.

I�m glad to read your opinion about Le�n, rebrites. And that comparisson between Chartres and Le�n cathedral could be a controversial one. (I hope this won�t be read by any French!! ) Well, I also think that our cathedral is aesthetically more beautiful than the one in Chartes. If we compare it with the temples in Reims or Amiens, the competition would be a little more difficult to our beloved "Pulchra Leonina". It has influences from Chartes cathedral in its ground plan, and from Amiens and Reims cathedrals in both its naves and the purity of its gothic style (they say). The stained Glass windows are unique for the variety of its colours.
I also agree with you in the greatness of the pedestrian areas near the Cathedral and the Plaza Mayor (and its tapas bars, )
Tha launderette thing, I�m afraid it's not a typical business there, but there is one -I think the only one in town- in Emilio Hurtado Univerity halls of residence in Campus de Vegazana; not very central, I�m afraid:


I also agree that food at Le Bicha is very nice and typical. It�s in Plaza de San Mart�n (Barrio H�medo -Old Town, near the plaza Mayor).
The Italian influenced little pension, as you said, is called Boccalino. It's in Plaza de San Isidoro, right in front of the Real Colegiata.
Being a small town as it is, it has a lot to offer its visitors and surely those who come back a second or third time will find new pleasures there.
(The Diputaci�n Prvincial should pay me!! :jeje: )
:cheers:

The linguistic theme is one of my favourite ones, Shawn, so I�m really happy that you asked that. Sorry for those who might get bored with this, but it requires a somewhat extended answer. I�m bored at work today so I�ll do it Ready? There I go...
The traditional language spoken in Le�n has several names: Leon�s (Llion�s), asturleon�s, Mirand�s (from Miranda Do Douro, in Portugal, where it's also spoken -and co-official with Portuguese), and even more names related to local dialects: cepedanu, pachuecu, alistanu, cabreir�s, etc... The language has survived in the form of local "hablas" which were incorrectly considered (and still are) "castellano mal hablado" (badly spoken castilian) because its forms resemble those from castellano a lot but with a different phonetic form -after all asturleon�s and castellano are closely related languages, and therefore very similar. The language is essentially the same as bable (asturianu). The only differences lie in the fact that it's split up into different dialects, due to the lack of a standard throughout its history after the Middle Ages. Some areas in the Leonese Mountains (near Asturies) El Bierzo, Sanabria and the North West of Zamora still keep the language (at an oral level). It is so because they are still very rural areas and not very much affected by progress and the media, and its speakers are normally rural non-educated (but real and authentic) people. You know, education is in standard Spanish, i.e: standard castellano, since it became the official language of the "roaming" court of Castilla. In the plain areas of Le�n, Zamora and Salamanca(Tierra de Campos, P�ramo, area of Benavente, The Duero area around Toro and Zamora, Salamanca etc) Castellano is spoken since the Late Middle Ages; it substituted asturleon�s by then; So we can say that it's also a traditional language from Le�n (the same way a variant of Old English is a traditional language from Scotland, together with Gaelic). This doesn�t necessarily mean that Le�n is a part of Castilla since other areas which adopted Castillian at the same time as those regions in the kingdom of Le�n have never been -and still aren�t- considered so (Andaluc�a, or Murcia, for instance). Again, the thing is similar to the one in Scotland: A form of English has always been spoken in Scotland (lowlands area), but it has never been a part of England. Both form the United Kingdom together with Wales and Northern Ireland, but keep different (although quite related) cultural personalities. The same way, Spain was formed with the Union of 2 big kingdoms: Castilla(with Navarra) and Aragon, which included previoulsly incorporated "mini" kingdoms. Big Castilla was formed by:
-The kingdom of Le�n (today: Galicia, Asturias, Extremadura, Le�n, Zamora, Salamanca, and most of the areas in Valladolid and Palencia)
-The kingdom of Castilla (including the Basque Country since the very beginning )
-Toledo (today:la Mancha)
-Andaluc�a
-Murcia (including Albacete)
..and some time later the Canary islands and the associated kingdom of Navarra ,
Big Aragon was formed by Catalunya, Aragon and kingdom of Valencia (today: Comunitat Valenciana).
Portugal didn�t take part in this "Union" process and, although it was incorporated to the Hispanic Empire of our most proud king: Philip II, it became definitely separated some time later.
Back to the linguistic point: In those traditionally Leonese Castillian speaking areas many terms and expressions from old asturleon�s have survived and mixed with castellano. They have been given a castillian phonetic shape but they are original from the old language.
Your wish is my command, Shawn. You asked for links, and here they are. There is just one link, as far as I know, with basic grammar of asturleon�s. It is actually a course on present day standard Asturianu (Bable) but as I said before, Llion�s and Asturianu are basically the same.I has 8 themes with basic grammar and exercises: http://www.asturies.com/asturianu/cursu/home.html
Other links with useful and interesting info on the matter (although some of them need updating, like Jer's classified adds in mm ) :
http://personales.com/espana/zamora/furmientu/la_lengua_leonesa.htm
http://www.furmientu.org/
http://www.iespana.es/elbauldelaculturaleonesa/literatu/literatu.htm
http://users.servicios.retecal.es/amnuve/lleones/presenta.htm
http://users.servicios.retecal.es/amnuve/dicllion/dicciona/presendi.htm

quote:

-The kingdom of Castilla (including the Basque Country since the very beginning)

Depending on when you think "the beginning" was. The Basques predate "los castellanos" and were a loose confederation even at the beginning of the Roman occupation, 1st C. B.C.

When Castilla y Le�n took over "control" of the vascongadas, they did so by swearing to uphold the Basque "fueros" or local autonomous rights. The Kingdom of Nafarroa was its own kingdom, even though it would later be absorbed by Spain.

My opinion on the Basques is that they didn't really care too much who "ruled" them as long as they were allowed to enjoy the same rights of autonomy that they always had. That explains the coexistence with Rome.

When those autonomous rights were questioned or quashed, they would then strike back. Ask Charlemagne and Roland about that, ca. 778 E.C. In contemporary history, Franco's attempted "Spanification" of the Basque region was met with terrorism via ETA.

To the contrary, Fernando I "El Magno" and Carlos I (V) Holy Roman Emperor, knew that they could count on Basque military help if they just threw the Basques a fuero bone and trekked to Guernica to swear to uphold Basque fueros.

Thanks Sensis,

Very interesting post about Llion�s, do you regularly speak it? When I was in Le�n everyone was speaking castellano. In fact, I didn't see any oficial information written in LLion�s. I too am quite interested in languages, as you may have noticed.

Saludos

Sorry Euskald�n; I acknowledge I haven�t been very specific when I said "the very beginning". I meant the very beginning of the existence of Castille as a kingdom, (not the Big Bang ). I thought this would be taken for granted, but it is true that it needs specification. Anyway, any mention of any Basque theme is always accompanied by an -almost- instant reaction . Don�t take me wrong, I think it is always positive to leave things clear. However, that post of mine was already veeeery long for more specifications. Of course I know that the Basques as a people are much older than the "castellanos". However, according to the books I�ve read which deal with the matter in depth, it is also true that the origin of the "castellanos" and their (now also our) language is in the area of the original County of Castilla (which used to be in Santander the northern part of Burgos and �lava). Their leader's title was "Conde de Castilla y �lava" (subordinated to the Asturian and Later Astur-Leonese monarch), and their language, castellano, future Spanish, is a romance -Latin origin- language with a very hard and noticeable linguistic influence from the non-romance (and much older) Basque language (specially from a phonetic point of view). The original and traditional Castillian institutions (administration, culture, etc) were very Basque, and opposed to the Asturian -and later Leonese- monarchy and laws. That's why they were the disidents in the kingdom: because they rejected the Fuero Juzgo (laws of the Astur-Leonese kingdom), inherited from the Visigoth Era. Gradually, and as it grew more and more, Castilla assimilated the Leonese culture, laws, unionist sentiments, etc... inherited from The Visigoth kingdom, and left its original Basque-like principles aside. On the other hand, the Castillian language was gaining more and more influence as is spread Southwards.
I know the Basques have always been very much protective of their autonomous right, and I strongly disagree with Franco's policy there. Anyway, Franco's "mistakes" and disrespectful "actions" were also ver negative for many more people within Espa�a, and we're all trying to overcome that, I suppose.

Hi, Shawn. Actually, my mother tonge is castellano. It's the language that both my parents and their families have always spoken, even if they are from and have always lived in Le�n. The reason for this is that my familiy (from both parts) is original from the capital and rural areas which are traditionally Castillian speaking.

As I said in my long above post, castellano has been spoken in many areas of the former kingdom of Le�n since the Late Middle Ages; and my parents' land of origin is among these areas. If you are really interested about the map of the areas of influence of castellano and astur-llion�s, I can e-mail you a copy, if you want.

I speak castellano, and it would be difficult (but not impossible) for me to speak decent astur-llion�s, mainly because in Le�n, we normally make frequent contact with our "brothers" and "sisters" from Asturies. They often cross the mountains and come to Le�n in order to enjoy the sunny weather they lack, and we go to Asturias to make contact with the sea and the wonderful people there. They speak either a mixture of 70% asturianu and 30% castellano or asturianu (90% at least; especially those from the mountains and mining areas).

However, the "castellano" that my parents, neighbours, friends,..., and I speak still has many terms and expressions coming from old astur-llion�s (although "castillinized") which sound "weird" when we use them with non-Leonese people. Apart from being "castellanizadas", these expressions sound weird to other Castillian speakers, not because they ignore these terms or expressions, but for the use and meanings we give them. For example:
-We use the verb " prestar ", which also exists in castellano "prestar"(= Eng. "Lend"), with an additional different meaning: (Sp)"gustar", (En)"enjoy"/"cause pleasure". For instance, we say: "Esa pel�cula me prest� mucho"; in standard Spanish people never say that, but: "Esa pel�cula me gust� mucho" (I liked/enjoyed that film a lot). In asturianu/astur-llion�s, it would be something like: "Esa pel�cula prest�me muchu". Please, if any Asturian reads this, don�t get angry at me if it's not 100% correct :lo: .

-We use words like " rapaz "(masculine)/"rapaza"(feminine) meaning "boy/girl" (kids, young fellows). This word also exists in standard castellano as an adjective to refer to a specific type of big birds: those which eat live animals ("aves rapaces") like eagles,... And we exclude any connotation of Leonese kids being "carnivores" :jeje:
-We say " telar " meaning "useless object"/"poor quality object", (like in castellano: "trasto,cacharro") and also "problem"/"complicated thing or matter" or "not very legal/dirty matter/business". "�La pol�tica? �Eso son todo telares!" (Eng. "P�litics? That's all problems/complicated -and frequently not very moral- matters!) In standard Spanish "telar" means "loom" (machine that knits and makes clothes) and only that.

There are maaaaaaaany more examples.

Apart from these, other characteristic features of Leonese Castillian speaking people which mark some differences with let's say "orthodox" Castillian speaking people are pronunciation, and the infrequent use of perfect tenses of verbs.
- Pronunciation : They say it sounds quite Galician, although mine, for instance sounds more Asturian (since Asturies is nearer my native area). I�m afraid after living in Madrid for some time, I�m starting to feel the loss of some of that characteristic intonation I used to have.
People from El Bierzo sound more Galician, because of the proximity of that wonderful land. It depends, once more, on the local "habla" we are dealing with.
-As regards the lack of perfect tenses (those formed by the auxiliary "haber"+ "participio", equivalent to the English ones which use "have"), the dialects influenced by astur-llion�s, like in the case of Galician, always use simple tenses where in pure castellano one normally uses a perfect (compound) tense. This is so because the original astur-llion�s didn�t have any compound tenses for verbs.

Focusing more on your questions,Shawn, nowadays very few people in Le�n speak llion�s, since it's not considered official (which explains why you never saw any official information written in this language) and it's just learnt orally by those people coming from very rural areas. Given that literacy has become a general phenomenon among the population in Le�n throughout the 20th century, and also, given that education can�t be done in astur-llion�s, castellano is the language used by most people nowadays. However, the variant of castellano we speak, as I explained above, keeps several features from this language; but the difference between the castellano we speak in Le�n and standard castellano seems very "light" when compared to the differences between the castellano spoken in Andaluc�a and the standard.

Hope all this answers your questions, Shawn.
:cheers:

Sensis excellent explanation!!

As for the word rapaz it is a word in castellano as well. It can refer to a bird of prey, but it is also a synonym for chaval . It may have fallen in to disuse, but it is a perfectly valid word in Castellano and in Portuguese.

quote:

rapaz.
(Del lat. rapax, -ācis).
1. adj. Inclinado o dado al robo, hurto o rapi�a.
2. adj. pl. Zool. Se dice de las aves de presa, generalmente de los �rdenes Falconiformes y Estrigiformes. U. t. c. s.
3. m. Muchacho de corta edad.
4. f. ave de rapi�a (ǁ ave carn�vora).
rapaces diurnas.
1. f. pl. Falconiformes.
rapaces nocturnas.
1. f. pl. Estrigiformes.
□ V.
ave rapaz


Real Academia Espa�ola � Todos los derechos reservados

Saludos

Many of these words are also actual Spanish, not only "rapaz", but also "prestar" (by the way, "prestar" was also used in Madrid some time ago - I have heard that some times to older Madrid-born people, like my father)... I work with a girl from Gij�n (Asturias), and she includes some infrequent Spanish words (but Spanish indeed), which I guess that come from her "bable". One of them I specially like is "rucar" (making noise with your mouth), since, as it is onomatopeyic, I deduced easily its meaning the first time I heard that.

With regards to gothic cathedrals, I have to say that, while the Reims one is impressive, maybe more than Le�n's, the latter is outstanding for the stained glasses, since in Reims most of them were destroyed during the World Wars. That's a pity, because the few which remained are as beautiful as Le�n's, but only in Le�n you can visit the whole cathedral iluminated with colour light, while in Reims only some few places get the colour light.

...So, Sensis, don�t forget about the vicinity to Galicia, where `"rapaz" is used as well to mean young men or kid. Contagious, isn�t it?

Leonora

I amazed at your knowledge of Spanish linguistics (also diachronically) and your control of the R.A.E dictionary, Shawn. Thumbs up for you!

You are right, words like rapaz are also included in the lexicon of castellano and WERE frequently used in many rural areas of castillian territories too; but today they sound old-fashioned and weird to most speakers there whereas in Le�n, Asturias and Galicia, they are still very common and are given an everyday usage. I suppose the lexicon of castellano, like that of English, absorbed words not just from castillian origin but from other places in Spain too (galicismos, like "morri�a", etc..)and gave as a result the Spanish lexicon that the R.A.E compiles in its excellent dictionary. For instance, I read somewhere that the originally astur-leonese word "afeitar" replaced the castillian "rasurar" (to shave) became the most common and normal one in standard Spanish, whereas the second one remains as a non-frequent synonym.

Have a try with "mancar", which we use in Le�n meaning "to cause (physical) pain", or "to be painful", in standard Spanish: "hacer da�o".

There are in rural areas of Le�n words like "pueyo" for "poyo" in standard Spanish (which is something like a bench of stone sticked and fixed to a wall for people to sit), "foguera" for the standard "hoguera" (bonfire), "fueya" for "hoja" (leaf), etc... These kind of words are remains of astur-llion�s which haven�t undergone the process of "castellanizaci�n", so I�m afraid the R.A.E dictionary doesn�t have them in the dictionary. Even I used them at sometime when I was a little child in my village...(so sweet memories :cry: )

Un abrazo