Ok, am I losing it, or what? Please assure me that my memory serves: words ending with "z" accent the last syllable, unless a written accent contravenes that. Ex: C�diz, l�piz. So what about "jerez" (sherry)and Jerez de la Frontera, the town? I'm doing a proof-reading job for PataNegra and can't find these words with written accents, meaning I've mispronounced them all the time? Same deal for the surname Blazquez(which my source says may be an alternate to Vel�zquez)and all of the other surnames ending -ez?
Their brochure for 2002 looks great. I'll send you a PDF file via email so you can have a look. There's a photo of me drinking txacol� in Guetaria, too.
Addendum: My friend Enric Claverol in Barcelona tells me that Jerez is in fact accented on the LAST syllable, which makes it a "sharp" word(aguda) Versus a "flat" word(llana) with the accent on the PENultimate syllable. And he wasn't even a language prof! Ever hear those terms, Jer? I never did, but then I only have a B.A.(jejeje)
Pack light, sleep cheap, eat well.
Posts: 479 | Location: ROCKFORD,MI, USA | Registered: 23 May 2001
Jerez and Jerez de la Frontera are both sharp (agudas) words. That's why they don't have a written accent or an accent mark. Only sharp words ending with "S", "N" or any vowel have an accent mark.
Bl�zquez is a flat word and it ends with a "Z". For this reason it's necessary to place an accent mark above the "A". All the flat words not ending with "S", "N" or any vowel have an accent mark.
Alberto
Posts: 3 | Location: Madrid - Spain | Registered: 06 September 2001
Speaking as a former Spanish teacher, I have to admit that this "sharp" and "flat" description of words was never taught me in my learning of Spanish!! All we learned was that words ending with "n" or "s" or vowels were accented on the next-to-last syllable and that words ending with any other consonant were accented on the last, UNLESS a written accent changed that! I guess "Jerez" threw me for a loop because we English speakers transformed that into "SHER-ry" and it made sense to have the the accents fall on the same syllable. On the other hand, we English speakers say NA-tion, while in Spanish it's na-CI�N, so logic does not necessarily apply. So, Alberto, can you tell me if most surnames(apellidos) ending with "z" are "flat"? M�ndez, Ju�rez, etc? Mil gracias por la lecci�n.
Pack light, sleep cheap, eat well.
Posts: 479 | Location: ROCKFORD,MI, USA | Registered: 23 May 2001
Okay, let's see if I can explain myself about these hard to undestand orthographic rules... It will be a little hard for me to do it in English, but I'll try anyways.
What makes a word to be sharp or flat is not the written accent, but its pronountiation. So, normally flat or sharp words are not stressed unless they gather certain conditions:
In the case of sharp words they never have a written accent unless they end with "N", "S" or any vowel. They always do if the end with any other consonant.
In the case of flat words they never have a written accent if they end with "N", "S" or any vowel. But they do if they end with any other consonant.
For instance:
- Carmen, Peso, Carro, Coche, Caballo, Perro...
- L�piz, T�ctil, P�rez, �rbol...
However, there are some exceptions to this. In some cases, these rules are not respected. That happens when the accented syllable of any word is formed by:
In Spanish, "A", "E" and "O" are considered as strong vowels. So the weak vowels are "I" and "O".
In theses cases, only one vowel can be accented so when it happens both weak and strong vowels can be stressed. It will depend on which one is accented. You will find this in the conjugation of many verbs.
These are the main and most difficult exceptions. But there are some other exceptions (don't complain, French is much harder!!!).
In the case of monosyllable words, they are never stressed unless they can be confused with the same word but with a different meaning. If this happens, one of them must be stressed. Which one of them is stressed has to be learnt by heart.
For instance:
- S� (Yes) and Si (If) - T� (Tea) and Te (You) - M�s (More, Plus) and Mas (But)
In the case of Que, Quien, Como, Cuando, Donde, Por que, Cual, Cuanto, and many others, they will be stressed if they are used to ask or to exclaim.
For instance:
- �Qu� calor! �Qu� quieres? - �Qui�n fuera t�! �Qui�n es ese? - �C�mo te quiero! �C�mo est�s?
About the surnames ending with "Z", all I can think of right in this moment have a written accent such as:
However I know that Ortiz and Paz have no written accent because they are both sharp word.
I hope this helps you clearing up your doubts. Sorry for my English. If you have any other kind of doubt, please contact me via e-mail. I'll be glad to help you.
Alberto
Posts: 3 | Location: Madrid - Spain | Registered: 06 September 2001
Man Alberto, you are a pro and seem to put a rusty Spanish teacher like myself out of "onda".
First of all, your English is excellent (at least written) so keep on with the great language lessons my friend and do it here on this forum rather than v�a private e-mails, that way all can benefit from your awesome knowledge
Incidentally, welcome aboard the Message Board
I was about to answer Sue's post with many of th same rules of written and unwritten accentuation when you came along, thanks for the help.
As a former Spanish teacher in the U.S.A., this topic was one of the harder ones for my students to get a good grasp of. It takes practice but gets easier.
Once again Alberto, "kudos" ("complements") to you on the awesome language lesson above The "Real Academia Espa�ola" (www.rae.es) could not have done better itself.
As noted, Alberto did a thorough job here. Took me back to my grammar class in Valencia, where I heard about "palabras agudas" for the first time, even though I'd learned the accent rules years earlier. For those who studied Spanish in the US, just in case it wasn't clear, in Spain, they use the word "aguda", or sharp, for what we would describe as "a word with the accent on the last syllable;" a "flat" word has the accent on the second to the last syllable; and a palabra esdrujula (sorry, I'm not set up to write the accent) has its accent on the third from the last syllable, the antepenultima...isn't that a lovely word? (again, sorry about the missing accent) When I was in Spain, I was a bit surprised to learn that the word categories themselves had different names, not just different descriptors as we're used to in the US. Thought I'd chime in with my two cents in case the different way of presenting the same info was confusing to anybody.
Metaphors be with you.
Posts: 16 | Location: San Gabriel, USA | Registered: 22 July 2001
complete with overkill on the accents. Love this Spanish Traditional Keyboard. Hey, when I was living in the U.S.A. , I used to have a key combination (can't recall the exact sequence) on my "Americano" keyboard that did the "�", "�", etc...
Sound farmiliar to anyone? Or was I just special?
Saludos, jer...
p.d. Hey Sue, you started this thread and wrote "Esdr�julas, etc." as the topic and you live in "GringoLand". Maybe you can tell Jennie how to get the "�". Or do you have a Spanish keyboard as well?
Gracias, Alberto, amor m�o(I just love a guy who knows good spelling and grammar!! I just hope there really is an accent on m�o---one of those hard and soft vowels deals? And if you have a great big vocabulary....oooooh! Irresistible.) Your English is fine.
US keyboard folks, listen up!
alt+130=� (on side keypad) 160=� 161=� 162=� 163=� 164=� 168=� 173=�
I have codes for those little "o" and "a" things on ordinal numbers, too 166=� and 167=� If you need a "u" with dierisis/umlaut, I can't help; only have the may�scula(�) so, too bad for G�ell park and other rare Spanish words that use it. Maybe someone can help me find it,hiding out with the francs, yen, pounds sterling �ƒ, � and �.
I'm not sure all are set up this way, but it works for me.
Never had the chance to really "study" abroad, and can't say I remember taking a phonetics class at university.(Had a great one for French,however!! The final exam included reading a passage I'd never seen aloud to the professor!) I DO remember that the word "esdr�jula" IS one(as is "�ltima" and all of those other antepenultimate-accented words)
Most of your tips sounded very familiar. Yes, written speech should always follow spoken speech(except when you are English speaker=consider all of the permutations of "ough" rough, bough, bought, though,through, and why oh why don't daughter and laughter rhyme???)
Pack light, sleep cheap, eat well.
Posts: 479 | Location: ROCKFORD,MI, USA | Registered: 23 May 2001
Querida Sue, I was born in Madrid and I have loved the Spanish language since I was a child. That's why I decided to become a journalist. Who else can work with a language daily? I am also interested in your language. I have studyied English for ever here in Spain. Beside that, I stayed for one year and a half in Waterloo, IA to improve it, but that was long time ago. I don't speak English very often so I'm kind of forgeting it.
I hope that if I ever have a doubt about your language you can also help me, alright? For example, do you say Beside or Besides, Anyway or Anyways? What's the main different between Do and Make? When do you use each one of them? Are there any rules for it? Thanks a lot to all of you... Un saludo.
Alberto
Posts: 3 | Location: Madrid - Spain | Registered: 06 September 2001
I envy you your lifework! I am a lover of language(it is part of what makes us human, and also is such a large part of culture; that is why I love Spanish. In its many forms(old and new world) it defines the people who speak it. After all, how can we think, and thus, feel, without language?)
In choosing Iowa, you got good, solid Midwestern American English, the "gold standard" in broadcasting. Sorry,Jer, you know it's true! Television is making regional accents blend together, I even notice Americans using the British"take a decision" instead of "make a decision"---it sounds very strange to me!
Though you do see it in writing, "alright" should be "all right" "Beside" is "al lado de" or "junto a" meaning "next to" whereas "besides" means "in addition to"
Examples: Please sit here BESIDE me. BESIDES being a talented webmaster, Jeremy has a great sense of humor.
"Anyway" is proper, "Anyways" really isn't,but people say it anyway! (it's like "de todos modos") The "any" sort of makes it singular....of course, always(always one word) is ALWAYS plural.
As for "make" and "do": "make" describes manufacture or cause most of the time. When I make dinner, it makes me happy.When I prepare dinner, it causes me to be happy.
"Do" is a more action in general word, plus a "helper" for forming questions. EX: Do you know what you are doing? is a question you could ask someone attempting to fix the plumbing for the first time. �Sabes lo que est�s haciendo? or perhaps �Sabes qu� est�s haciendo?
My students continually wanted to use "hacer" forms as "helpers" in making questions(wow! that's Spanglish:hacer una pregunta)
As for rules, "do" and "make" are definitely NOT interchangeable. "Make me!" is a defiant statement meaning, "Force me/Cause me to do ..." On the other hand, "Do me!" can mean anything from "Zip or button my dress"(it would probably be "do me up" then) to "Make love to me" to "kill me". Both of the last two are "neologisms" very slangy and not used by educated people. Both "do" and "make" are useful, but you can avoid using them most of the time by using more specific verbs.
P.D. "study" becomes "studied" in the past tense, and "forgetting" has two "t" to keep the "g" sound hard. Generally, we have a pronunciation rule sort of like Spanish--if "g" is before "a" "o" or "u" it is hard(close to Spanish) but before "e" or "i" it sounds like the letter "j"(which is NOT like "jota"--"jota" sounds like the English "h" only more guttural, like German "ch" almost? ) Just remember "gentle giant"
Sorry, I do tend to babble when I get to talking about language!
Pack light, sleep cheap, eat well.
Posts: 479 | Location: ROCKFORD,MI, USA | Registered: 23 May 2001
la antepen�ltima esdr�jula.....thanx for the codes, Sue. My husband had given me those codes way back, but as I hadn't had much cause to use them, I've got the paper somewhere in a real safe place, if ya know what I mean.
I've been enjoying your comments, and hope to see more in the same vein, and I love to talk and play with language, particularly bilingually.
Metaphors be with you.
Posts: 16 | Location: San Gabriel, USA | Registered: 22 July 2001
Sort of off-topic, I guess, but I was wondering if anyone might have a suggestion for places that teach Spanish in Madrid? I am interested in taking a couple of weeks of intensive language training to kick off the six months that I will be there. I have really only found a couple on the web, but wanted to see if there was a prevailing opinion out there. Thanks.
ben
Posts: 3 | Location: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: 20 September 2001
Hey Ben, actually, you could have started a new topic in this forum but that is OK. I usually recommend =elemadrid= (www.elemadrid.com), seeing as they are my #1 sponsor . But really, that is not the only reason, I think it is a great place to study and the school is well located and very nice.
Try www.oleidiomas.com for a great directory of Spanish schools in Madrid and all over Spain.
You can also check out www.in-madrid.com/lang_center for a list of some of the better Spanish schools in my opinion.
Well, there go my recommendations, the final choice is yours.
Saludos, jer...
p.d. If you do decide for =elemadrid=, please tell them that jeremy from multimadrid sent ya
The "Real Academia Espa�ola" (
- rent or buy a cell phone from me for your stay in spain, more info at 
- already have a cell phone, get a spanish SIM card for it at 
, I used to have a key combination (can't recall the exact sequence) on my "Americano" keyboard that did the "�", "�", etc...
