I have lived in Spain a full year now, and in that time i have had the pleasure and in many cases pressure of learning Spanish.

Me and the spanish language have a love/hate relationship, the fact that i HAVE to learn the language was the first thing that put me off, but i am slowly getting there.

The aspect that intrigues me the most is the psychology of language learning, by that i mean the aspects other than verbs, tenses, vocab etc.... I am reffering more to things like fear of failure, motivation, re programming your way of thinking, unrealistic expectations, negatively correlating with ability to speak etc......

I discussed this with a fellow MM member last week and it seems we share the same intrigue for this aspect of language learning, and now i am throwing it open on here, so if you have any idea what i am talking about and would like to add your thoughts? then please do so.

Some examples of the mental problems i have faced are:

Unrealistic expectations: I arrived in Madrid last July knowing only a few words... for those of you who dont know me.. I live in Navalcarnero and am currently building a house here, currently i am staying with my spanish Señorita Elena and her parents and brother. Myself and Elena are the only English speakers in the house (Elena is fluent english & spanish) so i presumed that within 4-5 months i would be at a VERY high level of spanish.

Imagine my suprise when 4 months later i could barely string a decent sentence together in Spanish what had happened? I should have been telling jokes, sharing stories, having deep discussions on the deeper aspects of life.... but the best i could manage was things like "Tengo hambre" and "he estado muy occupado hoy"

So where had i gone wrong? looking back i can see that unrealistic expectations meant that i was always going to have my confidence shattered from day one. It is important you are realistic with your goals.

My second problem was a fear of failure.... Generally i throw myself in at the deep end with problems, i do this knowing that should anything go wrong, more often than not i will be able to talk myself out of trouble.... At school i once had 5 lunch time detentions with different teachers on the same afternoon, after a quick chat with each teacher i had a lunch with my mates Talking my way out of problems, trouble and uncomfortable situations has always been something i have relied on, and now suddenly i am naked and defenseless.

Being the best: I am not really a competetive person, infact i am far from competetive, but for some reason i dont feel comfortable if there is someone with me who speaks spanish better than i do It makes no sense to me, but i find it very hard to speak infront of Elena or her family/friends. This is often the case when we go to bars etc.... if i happen to be on my own in a bar/cafe then i have no problems in ordering my own food/drink etc.. in Spanish, but for some reason i find it almost impossible to do when there is a fluent spanish speaker with me.

Something you dont know: January of this year i returned to the UK for a few days, i stayed with my mum and brother and after being in the UK for approx 24 hours i started to notice something very strange.... instead of having very little desire/interest in Spanish, all of a sudden i was fascinated by it. I remember speaking to my mum for over an hour about the differences in the two languages etc.... whats more i even studied my vocab and looked forward to practicing it... something that was far from true whilst i was in Spain.
So what makes me enjoy learning and speaking spanish whilst i am in the UK, but is NOT something i enjoy whilst i am in Spain?

My theory is that I know something that none of my family know, none of myfriends know etc.... in my mind i have the same excitement as a child who knows a great secret.

As an example: last night i went to a bar for a meal with elena, her parents and a few of her parents friends.... I was pretty quiet all night and generally avoided speaking in spanish at all times.

In September my dad is coming to visit for a few days, and i am already looking forward to going to spanish bars with him and chatting to the bar staff etc....

Perhaps it is because i know that i can make mistakes infront of my dad and he wouldnt notice, perhaps it is because i can speak spanish and he cant?

I really dont know why it is!

I would be keen to hear about your experiences whilst language learning, what were your fears? what mental problems did you face and how did you overcome them?

What do you know about the Psychology of learning a language?

Thanks for listening,

Deano.

Hi Dean,
As we have a similar background and circumstance, I can agree with many of the things that you have written.
I too have had my illusions shattered, when after 2 years of living in Mojacar (Almeria) I alarmingly found that my level of spanish was both insufficient for fluid conversations and frankly quite embarassing.
I too am less inclined to speak in Spanish with others around me who speak English and Spanish well, and prefer to sit in silence (fear of embarassment).

I never wanted to be the type of expat who continued their cosy way of life here in spain without intergrating into the culture (and frankly had contempt for those who did). But how can you do that without a firm knowledge of the language, right?

True, all of your points have some credence... but some time ago, I came to the conclusion that the only one missing out was me.
It hit me hard when I saw the way that the 3 year old son of my friend was happily talking away in 3 different languages (obviously not without mistakes and sometimes using a mixture of them all) but instead of bemoaning the fact that I hadn't had the same opportunity to grow up in Spain (and thus find it easier) it finally motivated me to just get on with it, and try harder.

Why allow my spanish friends to have all the english practice they desire, when I should be benefiting from their knowledge too?!
So what if I make stupid mistakes, and people might have to be a little more patient with me? (they are mostly my friends after all!)

What's more embarassing - not having a good level of spanish after 2 years in Spain, or continuing not to try after having lived here for 2 years...you've just got to bite the bullet and get out there.

So, that is why I have decided enough is enough.. I am moving to Madrid in 2 weeks, have enrolled in a Spanish course, and am wantonly throwing myself into 'foreign' situations with no safety net.
I do this because I now understand that necesity is the mother of all learning. If I can't communicate, I starve!!
So, yes, it may have taken me longer than most to realize this, but at the end of the day, I'm not going to beat myself up about it.
No more excuses, no more denials.
Languages ARE hard work, and just because it doesn't come easily, doesn't mean it isn't worth knowing, or isn't meant to be.

En fin, os espero ver pronto en Madrid para hacer amigos y hablar sin miedo!!!!
Saludos a todos,
Jenny
jennywillmin@yahoo.es

Good luck! in case you are in danger of starvation while in Madrid you can count on us to help u!

Just came on this post and i'm releived not to be the only one. I am constantly asked 'when will you speak spanish?' Like Deano I have a Spanish other half who can speak English (I think this is where we fall down due to laziness). I too am embarrassed to speak in front of her family/friends but can go to shops/bars on my own and people understand me. But give me a few pints and the fear subsides and off I go blabbing on in my pigeon Spanish! One of my main problems is working from home for English companies, no real interaction with Spanish people. But I'm signing up for a course soon in Madrid and hopefully get better. Good luck all!

OK, here's my two cents, based on my own observations and experiences. Just my opinion. First, off, I want to say, PLEASE don't think there is some sort of missing language gene there or that you have failed at something. I really don't think that's it-I really think it's just because of the situation you have been in. My experiences of learning languages have ONLY happened when I have been COMPELLED to learn them-ie: when it was the ONLY way I had to communicate because NO ONE spoke English. And I am someone who communicates. So if I couldn't do it in English, I would make myself do it in Spanish. And I believe that's really the only way to do it. Everytime I have been in a situation where there was someone else who spoke English or who could help me while I was trying to learn, I took the easy way out and relied on them. And when I have spoken to people who have spent semesters and years abroad surrounded by other English speakers, it seems that they never really learn the language for the same reason.

Why? Cause it's HARD. Honestly, I have learned two foreign languages and each time it's been the same thing-you feel lost, you feel like an idiot, you feel like someone stole your personality-because you can't be as witty or as communicative or anything else the way you can when you are speaking your native language.

First you don't understand what's going on. Then, your ear tunes and you follow the conversations but can't put a sentence together to save your life. Then, you can do it, but it takes SO LONG to formulate that by the time you are ready, the conversation moved on 20 minutes ago. And then, finally, you can speak, but you can't joke, or respond as lyrically as you would like. Little by little you work your way there. It's ALWAYS going to be more comfortable, fun, etc. to speak your own language than in struggling to learn a new one. But you HAVE to push yourself through this wall. Because the rewards of moving through it and emerging as you little by little start to really communicate in that second language, as you find your voice in that language, as words come out of your mouth that you weren't even aware you had learned, as you start to translate back(!) when you speak English-they're just amazing. It is SO worth it.

But you need to understand this-YOU WILL MAKE MISTAKES Constantly, as you learn, and even AFTER you feel comfortable in the language. A full YEAR after I had been living in the Spanish language in Ecuador-I was still making silly goofs thinking I knew what I was doing. In particular, one charming tale has me trying to buy a shirt for my sister-in-law and trying to describe her height to the salesgirl. I wanted to say that she was two inches shorter than me. Oh, that's easy right? "Ella tiene dos pulgadas menos que yo." Ya, but what I SAID was: "Ella tiene dos PULGAS menos que yo." Ummm....that means she has two less FLEAS than I do! Needless to say, the salesgirl looked at me a little funny and kind of backed off as she clearly wondered "Well, how many fleas do YOU have exactly?" Ya, that was after a YEAR of living in the language.

How to deal with this? Just LAUGH at yourself. And applaud yourself for doing this very difficult thing that everyone is going to admire the HELL out of you for doing. No one is going to judge you for not speaking perfectly-how does anyone do ANYTHING well without practicing it?!?!? Really, anything?!?!?! Why on EARTH would taking on a whole new language be different? You simply cannot wait to speak until you do it perfectly-that was lies madness.

So, my advice is:

(1) Throw yourself into it. Do it-there is no other way. Determining that you are ONLY going to communicate in Spanish from now on. Tell Elena you only want to speak in Spanish-that you don't want her help in translation or anything-she can speak to you slowly in Spanish and you can act things out-but NO English. Yes, I know that will be hard-but you HAVE to. And don't think you don't have the tools to do it-because I'm sure you do. I spent much of my first year in the language (and still fall back all the time) using the phrase "the thing that...." when I didn't know the word for something. It didn't matter that I didn't have the vocabulary yet-I was communicating in Spanish! Jenny's going to go through that same experience now in Madrid-and I bet she'll be UNSTOPPABLE in a few months! And you, Dean, are clearly a communicator also. If you had no one to speak English to, you would communicate in Spanish, I KNOW you would.

(2) Let go the fear of mistakes. You have to. That is insane. No one will judge you for trying to do this. Let go of the concern about native Spanish speakers being better than you-there's no competition there-they are speaking their first language and you are moving beyond that to your second-you WIN! Listen to them, learn from them, let them hear your mistakes and help you correct them. Also, if South America is any indication, you may eventually realize you speak BETTER Spanish than a native speaker who may devolve into slang and sloppy grammar(just like we do in English). AND, people tend to find it charming when others try to speak their language. I am told Spaniards like the American and British accents. And I keep getting lauded for speaking "perfect" Spanish (which I ABSOLUTELY do NOT-not even close!) Frankly, at this point, even as an American, I LIKE speaking to beginning Spanish speakers because I have to speak slowly and more carefully and I speak better Spanish than I otherwise would!

You will get there-but you have to set yourself up for success. And you can do it, you really can!

I guess that this was my overall sentiment about learning Spanish too, but more eloquently put by schwendy.
Lets hope that I am as UNSTOPPABLE as you predict, I have certainly got the determination!
All is going well so far, 2 weeks of speaking only in Spanish, with bar staff, waiters, shop assistants, giving directions (this always gives me a sense of pride as I really feel as if I'm a resident here, not just a tourist ). I had to struggle in Mcdonalds though, the lovely girl serving me tried to speak to me constantly in English and we had a battle with me replying to everything in Spanish... in the end, I asked her to please speak to me in Spanish, as I actually lived here, and it was fine). Some days, I feel like a complete idiot, and am completely frustrated, but as you all know, it won't be forever.
I'll carry on making those mistakes with gusto!
Saludos x

Rock on, Jenny!

Thanks, I don't know if it was eloquent as much as running over at the mouth-but it was heartfelt!

You will get there! Go on with your bad self!

XXXXXXXX UPDATE XXXXXXXXX

Towards the end of July i was in a chinese restaurant with Elena and a few of her family members.
I sat there and barely said a word all night and came home bored

Now this isnt like me, not one bit. I like to have a laugh and make jokes that no one else gets, and to be honest it can be very annoying for someone like myself in these situations.

For the first 11 months i pretty much handled these situations well, because i knew and everyone knew that i was new to spain and new to the language. But in my head the 1 year barrier seems like too long to NOT be speaking at a higher level.

So when I returned home that night i had a heart to heart with Elena.... Admittedly i had shown my english side and finished off around 2 bottles of wine in the chinese, but i meant what i was saying:

"I dont want to speak english anymore! it makes no sense to speak english, i am in spain, you are spanish, we are surrounded by spanish speakers..... Lets try and go a whole week without speaking english, not one word, no matter what the circumstances, not one word!"

Ok, she says, "starting from tommorow, we will go one week sin inglés".

So 2 days into the experiment and things were fairly awkward, i was still pretty shy when i had to speak Spanish, but days 3 and 4 suprised me.....

I was actually enjoying the challenge, and whats more.... my fear had pretty much gone.

You see, when you have NO OPTION it is a lot easier, especially if everyone around you knows you cant speak english.

I found myself fearless and decided to extend the task for an extra 3 weeks.

Now i have to be honest, we managed 16 days, with only the occasional slip.... but we have now slipped back into the English speaking habbit again, and I think I need to start again....

I Noticed that my speaking is a lot better then my hearing/understanding.....

I can generally express basic feelings and thoughts, but rarely can i understand what people are saying in Spanish, especially if they have an accent.

I am told that this is the opposite of what most people have, and that it is an advantage, but i am starting to find myself pretending to understand people, and i need to get out of this habbit quickly.

As of tommorow Elena will NOT speak english to me, but i can speak english for 2 weeks.

This should ensure that we dont just sit there silently all night, and it should also improve my ability to understand spoken spanish.

I am also planning to start listening to some music in spanish, and also i need to stop watching tv in english. (damn canal+ digital)

As always i will keep you informed of my progress or lack of.

Cheers,

Deano.

Good luck with the experiment, although I think speaking 2 different languages will be too confusing for you...
I always find that I improve in leaps and bounds when I drop English completely. Also, Spanish TV is a MUST.
I am really into my Spanish music (Maná, Paco de Lucia, Diana Navarro etc) and TV shows (Operación Triunfo ) and find it the best way to pick up the lingo and culture.

I don't understand how your spoken Spanish can be better than your written or comprehension, how did you manage that? I still try and fall back on texting rather than speaking on the phone because I can read and write pretty well - a habit I am trying to break in order to gain a bit of confidence in handling spoken spanish.

Finally, I think the process of learning a language can be a little like having a mid life crisis every few months.. you hit the 1 or 2 year benchmark without having achieved fluency, and kind of go a little crazy! Stop beating yourself up about the time it takes you to feel comfortable in Spanish, just enjoy the process and the great sense of achievement that it will bring

Hope to see you (and anyone else reading this) on Thursday for the tour of the centre and lunch (posted under the 'buddy up' thread)
Jenny x

Dean,
Good going-that's exactly what I had in mind. But you need to get back to it. In addition to Elena, get outside of the house, do your best to meet other people who will only speak Spanish. 'Cause the problem with your situation right now is that you have a CHOICE. And, as I said before, people will always choose the more easy/comfortable way out and go back to speaking English-everyone does. This can't be optional-you will not ever be able to speak Spanish unless you try. Also, I agree with Jenny-you have to immerse yourself in it-the music, the tv-all of it. That's going to get you there faster. Put yourself into a Spanish world-yes, you can read in English-but just put away the rest of it for awhile. I don't think you speaking English and Elena responding in Spanish is going to get your brain working the right way. The reason you don't understand yet is that you haven't HAD to, just as you said-you have had the choice to have Elena translate for you. It takes awhile for the ear to tune to the language-give yourself that time. Plus, remember how you were enjoying speaking Spanish. Believe me, you can be that same jokey guy in Spanish-it's just going to take awhile. But you won't get there unless you HAVE to.

Another idea for listening practice that I used in language teaching....in the States (and I would assume in Spain), all recent (like the last 20 years or so) models of tv have to have an option for closed captioning (so that deaf people can READ the words that are being said). All you have to do is turn on this function on your tv and you will be able to hear and READ the words in Spanish at the same time. If, for some reason your television doesn't have this, you can buy a closed caption viewer at any Radio Shack-like store. Of course, all this is assuming that Spain close captions its programs, but I am sure it must. And this assumes that you actually watch Spanish tv and not English tv! Good luck!

I havent updated this for a while, so thought I would let you all know how my farthers visit to Madrid went.

As you recall in my previous posts, i was pretty self conscious when it came to speaking Spanish, I
also thought that after 1 year of living here I should know more.

I presumed my dad would have the same naive way of thinking, and i thought that he would expect me to be fluent by now.

Anyway, he arrived on the 2nd of September and we met at the airport, he was very impressed with the Metro system here, and 30 mins later we were at our hotel in Gran via.
That night we went to a bar in the main Plaza, cost a bloody fortune, but I ordered the drinks in Spanish, although he didnt seem to notice.

I soon realised that my dad is completely different to me when it comes to languages, my way of thinking is that I should try my best to speak in Spanish and he just accepts he knows no Spanish and just speaks English to everyone, he is a very outgoing person, and it seemed that even the members of Elenas family that spoke no English at all, understood what he was saying.

What suprised me the most was how laid back he was with the language barrier, he didnt care if he didnt understand someone, he never once got embaressed (although in my 23 years on this planet I am yet to see him embaressed or nervous) although me made no effort to learn any Spanish whilst he was here, he impressed me with his laid back attitude towards people who dont understand him.

Anyway, we had a good first night at a Chinese restaurant, and I ordered the food and drinks.... He seemed fairly impressed, but didnt really say much about it.

The next couple of days we did all the usual touristy things... We went on the tour of the palace, we went on the tour of Real Madrids Stadium, we walked round the gardens of the palace and we went to that huge park with the big lake (Sorry, cant remember the name)

Anyway, all was good and he loved Madrid. But the big challenge was yet to come....

MEETING THE PARENTS

I had known this day was coming since we arranged my dads trip in May, so I knew I was going to find it awkward, I was expecting awkward silences, and I was very worried that I wouldnt be able to communicate with Elenas family and that my dad would see that I had been here 14 months and couldnt hold a conversation.....

I couldnt have been more wrong. For some strange reason, whilst my dad was here my Spanish confidence was at an all time high, I think its because he didnt understand what I was saying, thus meaning I could make mistakes and he wouldnt know, or maybe i am a show off?

Anyway, he arrived at our little village at around 5pm, and Elenas brother, mother and farther were there to greet us.

Elena was with us, but i tried to do as much of the translating as possible... We did the tour of the house and I explained what they were saying to him and vice versa, Elena helped out every now and then. Then we went to the Kitchen and all had a beer and I chatted with Elenas parents whilst my dad looked on in awe. I could tell he was impressed, and he told me so on the way to meet my Spanish teacher Fernando.

We met Fernando, his wife and his daugher at around 7pm at a bar near our house, Fernando is a great guy, very friendly and he speaks fluent Spanish and English. I am good friends with him and i knew he would get on well with my dad.

We had a chat for about 45 minutes and I spoke with Fernandos wife in Spanish, she said my Spanish was very good and that my accent was almost non existant at times...

This is something I have been told before, apparantly people think that I have an ear for the accents, and now when I speak in Spanish they understand me very easily.

Fernando commented that I seem to have a gift for the language and that I am a fast learner... And my dad told him how impressed he is.

That night we went for a meal and the day after my dad returned to England and myself and Elena jumped on a plane to Tenerife. I was truly on a language high, i was so proud of myself, it had gone better than I could of ever imagined, and now people were telling me my Spanish was excellent yet 3 months earlier I was depressed at my lack of ability.

During the holiday I spoke Spanish as much as possible, on two occasions i was given a free drink because the locals were impressed that an English person spoke Spanish. In the taxi from the airport the driver siad that in 3 years she had NEVER had an english person that spoke more than a few pre rehearsed phrases, so I realied once again how lazy us Brits can be with language learning.

The holiday was great and I am back in Madrid now, we have since decided to go and live in Tenerife for a year or two, with my English charm there should be more opportunities for me there, but we will return to live in Madrid once our house is built.

I now need to get my level of Spanish to advanced level, if I am going to work in Tenerife I will need to be able to speak with clients, customers, phone calls etc all in Spanish, and currently I am a long way from being able to do this.

So I am going to try and increase my vocab this week and I will try and let you know how it goes.

In summary, I learned that my expectations are too high and I underestimate myself way too much.

I hope you are all well,

Deano.

I was just wondering if anyone had any more updates for this string...I am interested to know if Deano and Jenny are speaking more fluently or if anyone has any new advice. Having just arrived and thinking I would understand people pretty well since I always understood my spanish tutor -- I understand almost nothing. I am watching a lot of tv - I am learning all about the tv celebrities - including the former French porn star who is now on the spanish version of Survivor.....