Hi there! I hope you dont mind me giving my thoughts on this thread!

I believe that the ultimate purpose of language is to communicate, so whether you get your grammar right or not is not always that important, so long as you get your message across in an appropriate way, unless you are going into poetry and literature and all the variations on that.

I am writing this because of the question of "how much you can learn until you can be profficient and qualified to speak a language".

When I moved to London with a number of Spanish friends I noticed that some of those who could speak fairly good English and always excelled at the subject at school found it much harder to speak to people than some who had no idea but really put the effort in at getting their message across. After 2 or 3 months, their English was much better and they had English friends whereas some who had the theory would not bring themselves to practice it. Obviously, this may not qualify you for a specific job, but I have found that the people that immerse themselves in a culture (whichever it is) and keep their ears and eyes open, can learn in 1 year what one can learn in a classroom in 3 (sometimes! avoid guiris, Sky TV and Irish bars!!!)

What I mean is that people who make an effort to speak and understand, regardless of being laughed at, will often find that they are assisted more and get by better (and if they are laughed at, the shame is on the person laughing).

The question may have been asked more in the context of corporate employment, in which case the grammar would be very important, I admit.

As for grammar, there are obvious pitfalls in all languages, and I don't see why Spaniards wouldn't make mistakes any less than many English speakers would, especially as some of the sentence constructions in Spanish can be more complex. (by the way, is "the sea" male or female? El mar o la mar??? Is it genderless?)

Again, I would stress that the message is more important than how it is said. Given that language is always progressing and changing, I doubt there is anyone that can claim to know everything at any one time.

So my take would be: you speak the language when you can communicate more or less well (regardless of the odd grammatical pitfall) and can feel more or less comfortable speaking to someone in that language, can understand the TV and the newspapers and get by without harassing innocent shop keepers with words like "is dere a Boots chemist around these vicinities, my good man?"
There are probably 1000s of philologists who will fault this, but anyway, I didn't mean to be pedantic.
Thanks for a great forum and thread, and thanks for letting me give my take on this.

hola Godot27, and thank you very much for your excellent contribution to this thread, muchas gracias muchisimas.

Your input on this subject makes very good reading, and helps all to get a better picture of the whole subject of learning a language, and why some people put themselves through years of tortuous late night study & gruelling exams, or why some just go to a country like Spain with almost no knowledge of the language, and take a chance on surviving like that, like a friend of mine did when she came here to London from Andalucia almost 10 years ago, with absolutely nothing, not even hello or good bye, or how much is etc, she knew nothing at all, fortunately she met people like me here, who helped her along, but even so, she struggled and suffered badly for several years before finally getting a full time job.

Well anyway, thanks once again, and keep posting your thoughts on the subject, and any interesting stories about anyone who went and learned it like that, (The hard way)

Saludos y cheers :cheers:

godot27, the sea can be either la mar or el mar. it just depends on the spanish speaking country you are in, each one seems to have their own preference.

wow! and I thought the difference between el mar and la mar was literary. I learned that in everyday common spoken language, it is referred to as masculine... el mar.

However, in poetry and other literature, when the author wants to evoke certain characteristics or feelings within the reader, it is referred to as la mar.

Can anyone clarify this?

Hey, I love the "el/la mar" question.

honning12, yes, it can depend on the country.

Yes Chica, I heard it can be literary as well but it is not true that...

quote:

... in everyday common spoken language, it is referred to as masculine... el mar.

I learned that is depends on the person who is speaking.

OK, here is my take on the "el/la mar" thang as it is used in Spain. It may be true or not but I like the explanation so I will stick with it.

"El mar" is used by those not "of" the sea. Basically this means that those who do not live by the sea, make a living from the sea or have or feel any "connection" to the sea will say "el mar".

"La mar" on the other hand would be used by someone who lives by the sea or has some type of "connection" to the sea.

This explains the literary take on it as described by Chica.

Let me explain a bit more via some examples...

� A local fisherman in a sleepy little fishing village on the Costa Brava would say "�Que bella es la mar" as he looks out over the sea on an autumn afternoon.

On the other hand, a lawyer from Madrid on vacation in a sleepy little fishing village on the Costa Brava would say "�Qu� bella es el mar!" as he looks out over the sea on a autumn afternoon.

That is assuming the Madrile�o lawyer was born and raised in Madrid and has no "connection" to the sea.

In another situation, the Madrile�o lawyer may have spent every summer at his/her beach town and/or loves sailing, then he may say "la mar" as he has a "connection" to the sea.

Hope this all makes sense.

It is a romantic (and literary) explanation which is why I like it :l:

Saludos,
jer...

Iberian wrote...

quote:

... she struggled and suffered badly for several years before finally getting a full time job.

That's what she gets for moving from Andaluc�a to London, is she off her nut

But seriously...

quote:

Well anyway, lets hear from you all, your thoughts on the subject of learning another language like Spanish,...

quote:

... why you do it?

Passion for the Spanish language and all (ok, most ) things Spanish.

quote:

... and why to such a high level?

If you are going to do something, do it well

quote:

... if you don�t really need it

In my opinion, if you love doing something, "needing" it or not does not come into play.

My story is long but I will cut it short so as not to bore you all :z:

I became interested in the Spanish language in 8th grade when I toook "Spanish I" and from there I simply loved it and followed the natural course of things, "Spanish II", "Spanish III", etc... through Junior High, High School, College, Grad Shchool...

While I knew I would visit Spain eventually, I never once suspected that I would end up moving here for good, after all, in 8th grade that is the last thing on one's mind.

I am proud of being "bilingual" and would not trade it for the world. I have busted my ass to get the fluency and understanding of the language that I have but it was well worth it.

Saludos,
jer...

Hey Godot...great contribution....a bit off the thread but relating to your point...I learned my "practical" Spanish in the streets and can express myself in most situations...but not without haven gotten very very dirty in the process of learning. Here is a list of my major learning blunders...anyone else feel like sharing theirs? An MM board member named MC can attest to most of these...
1) I once called a bartender a "cabron" when I wanted to asked him to "cobrarme un poron (you know..that glass jar with a long neck used to drink beer from)...although I don't believe it, MC says it is true. :cheers:
2) learned too many Spanish vulgarities in the street and didn't know when not to apply them...told a soon to be older aunt-in-law that something "me costo un huevo" thinking the use of "huevo" related to a time when all Spaniards were campesinos and eggs were very costly.... :lo:
3) always confused the words socks and underwear....but ALWAYS..I still have to think about it sometimes
4) my favorite...before I knew about "conmigo" how do you think I said "with me"? How about this one...quieres ir con yo...? I cringe when I think how often I said that. :cry:
5) only a Spaniard or castellano speaking gringos would appreciate this one.....go to McDonalds and ask for a McPolla.......
6) not to be rude...and I avoid using either one at all costs..."I am very tired" = estoy hecho polvo and "I am having an orgasm" = hecho polvo (or something very similiar) I NEVER NEVER NEVER say anything other than "estoy cansado" for "I am tired". Way too much to explain if I confuse the two...imagine making that mistake infront of good old Mom-in-law....joooooder!
7) I know there must be more but very luckily, I was quite drunk for most of my time is Spainl. Come on guys...share with the group. I bared my worst moments!!!

Thanks TJ & Iberian!
Loved the posts!

I think that languages are fascinating in general and (sorry, about to get airy-fairy!) to an extent they can define thought and action.

One of the funniest things I have heard was in the series Blackadder where Blackadder tries to explain to Baldrick how hard and dangerous the Germans can be (apologies to any Germans reading this, by the way, its only a joke)
He says:
"Baldrick, they have no word for "fluffy"".
Sorry, I thought that was hilarious.

Anyway, back to the point, thanks to TJ for laying bare the blunders there!
There are so many that are so easy to make!
However, I'm not sure whether calling a bartender a "cabr�n" would be so bad given that the word is bandied about to all and sundry without too much thought!
It must be admitted that the Spanish language is much more tolerant of the swearword and many foreigners have been alarmed at the frequency with which c*�* and j**er are used.
I hope this is not too bold, but I remember explaining to an alarmed Britt what "me c*** en Dios" actually meant, though admittedly that is, thankfully, not used that often...

I guess the same blunders are always made to the inverse: Spaniards leaving chemists perplexed as to whether they required Frenadol or laxatives (costipado/constipated)(lol?).

In any case, whatever blunders anyone makes, I think it is down to the person hearing them to either understand them or point them out (helpfully), as I said in the previous post. Language is about communicating and thats a two way thing. Being a good talker or a good listener are equally important.
lol! that's my piece said!
cheers!

Englishman trying out his spanish in the restaurant. He orders gazpacho which is served promptly. He looks down at his gazpacho and is horrified to see a fly drowning in it.

Englishman: "Senor (doesn't pronounce the �), senor. Mira. Mira. Un..um.. mosca. Mira el mosca!"

Mozo: "No se�or. It is LA mosca!"

Englishman squints down at the fly and in astonishment says "That's damn good eyesight you've got there."

TJ Guy and Roland... this is especially for you!

Common English Errors

TJ, when I first came to Lanzarote, my Spanish "teacher" was local farmer across the road. I too used the phrase "con yo" when I spoke with him. It was only when some English friends heard me talking, that they corrected me - Antonio had been too polite!! I had no idea whatsoever what I had been saying :b:

I also went to buy some underpants for my husband for Xmas, could I remember what word I needed, was it calzoncillos or calcetines?? Not wanting to be looking a fool I remembered another word - bragas!!!!!!! I asked for some in my best Spanish, the assistant understood me and asked what size I wanted. Not sure, was my reply, they are for my husband!!!!!! At that, she just turned away and refused to serve me!!

The one thing that still brings me out in a panic is the calor/caliente thing!!! I do know which is which but worry that I will always say the wrong thing!

ha..."estoy muy caliente!"...that is almost as bad as confusing "I'm tired" and "I'm climaxing" :ks:

Chica:
After a long day of reading unedited copy at a daily newspaper, I have to tell ya a huge number of "PROFESSIONAL writers" in USA have no grasp of "i.e., e.g.," all right/alright, or even they're/their/there!!

Language is so crazy. Sometimes I advocate a return to the point-and-grunt system that must have served us so well for so many millennia.

Reb.

There is a good book called "A Comprehensive Spanish Grammar" by Jacques De Bruyne which talks about some of the things mentioned in this thread.

the la/le/lo thing is something he claims is "evolving". some people now use la and le to mean something animate, and lo just for inanimate, regardless of direct/indirect object, etc.

Its a great book, originally written in Flemish or French but adapted for the English speaker - it goes over EVERY point of grammar ever, and talks interestingly of all sorts of variants.

e.g.

The Madrile�os often say things like "Ayer, he ido a la casa de mis padres" (should be "ayer, fui...")

in Galicia (I think) 'tener' is starting to replace 'haber', allowing for things like "Tengo ido a la casa de mis padres".

My Spanish friends deny things like this are ever said, but I have heard the first example here in Madrid myself. Never been to Galicia though.