In my quest to stay here in Madrid legally and to be a permanent student, I've decided that I need to start thinking about what to do next fall. I'd like to apply to a master's program at Complutense, but I have absolutely no idea what that entails. Of course I could ask around at Complutense, but I figured I'd cast my lot here first...

I'm a college graduate (a US degree of dubious merit)... have studied here and there in the twelve years since college... wrote an undergraduate thesis on the Catalan language... and will have completed the year-long Estudios Hispanicos program at Complutense. As a result, I'll have some good recommendations from professors at Complutense in various fields (can't hurt, right?).

So has any American (or other non-EU citizen) managed to apply independently to grad school at a public Spanish University? I have NO interest in going through a US program. I've already managed to navigate the "system" at Complutense and I'm based here in Madrid, so I can keep at it until I succeed... I've heard unpleasant words like "homologaci�n" thrown about.

I'd just like to hear some reassuring first-hand accounts that this is possible...

Funny you should bring it up, Mariposita, but I am thinking along exactly the same lines and was looking at the UCM website only yesterday.

I can't paste the links directly in because their site uses JavaScript instead of normal HTML links, but the most promising info I found was at: http://www.ucm.es/ -- then click "Oferta de estudios y formaci�n", then under "T�tulos UCM" click "Estudios de Postgrado: Magister, Especialista, Experto".

This got me here:

http://www.ucm.es/info/vterci/tpropios/index.htm

And there is info on pre-enrolment here:

http://www.ucm.es/info/vterci/tpropios/info.htm

Looks like for 2004/2005, the pre-enrolment period was from 17 to 31 May. There are no dates for 2005/2006 up there yet but it will most likely be the same. Looks like you have to pay 10% of the course fees in order to pre-enrol, then you'll be able to get an extension to your student visa (I hope!).

In any case, I too will be watching this thread very closely!

mariposita,

i'm thinking of applying to begin a doctorado at Carlos III this fall. the application deadline is sometime in june, so there seems to be plenty of time. also the process looks pretty straight forward and not too difficult.

i agree with you about doing it directly here, as us university will charge an arm and a leg, while spanish universities are incredibly cheap. i don't know about Compultense, but Carlos III comes out being cheaper than most community colleges in the states.

a friend of mine from Brasil began the same doctorado this past fall and she really enjoys it. the classes are quite good, even though she says the administration part has sometimes been a bit of a nightmare. and she's started her doctorado with only a BA, so you might want to consider that as a possibility as well. it would give you another 3 years here at least.

finally, i've been trying to find out if it's possible to work while on a student visa. i've read all the threads on this board concerning it as well as the websites for the various Spanish consulates in the states. it's not very clear and you get the impression that the answer is no. but in fact, i know of at least one person whose been doing it (legally with all the appropriate papers, etc.), so it's worth looking into and being persistant until you get the answer you need. i think there is a limit of how many hours a week you can work. but even if it is something like 15 hours per week, that would be sufficient for many teaching english.

boneshaker

Hey guys... this is a great thread as I am also thinking about going back and taking some classes. Perhaps not full or part time... but gradually working on some post graduate studies. Thanks Greguito for the links, the information looks promising. I'll be spending the weekend reviewing it!

hey, great topic.

boneshaker, in order to keep this on track, try to keep the working on a student visa discussion on one of the existing threads on that topic.

well, for those of you who are legal here (have residency like Chica), unless things have changed, you can apply as a spaniard would. i'm pretty sure you are seen as an eu citizen as far as studying and entering the uni. goes.

i entered a doctoral program years back at the complutense as a uk citizen and applies as a spaniard would.

been a looooong time snce i did this so could be off on the info.

sorry, i know the topic is "applying as an American citizen" but thought i would put in my 2 cents.

saludos,
jer...

When I first came to Spain and was desperately trying to find a way to stay legally, I signed up for Complutense classes as an "Estudiante oyente" (auditing student).
I didn't attend a single class, but was actually able to renew my visa the next year, as an "estudiante oyente" AGAIN, after getting a very kind Profesora to sign a paper saying I'd been faithfully attending her classes.

By the way,I don't think "homologaci�n" is necessary for post-graduate degrees (it IS necessary if you want to do another another undergraduate degree... ironically...). However, if you ever want your doctorado to be officially recognized by the Spanish state (say, for "oposici�n" purposes), you WILL need to get your undergrad degree homologado.

Cheers,
K.

Thanks for all of the responses! Let's all post back here on what we find out. I'm going to ask some of my teachers (one of whom is the director of the Hispanic Studies program) for help with this and will report back.

Greguito--let's hope we figure this out without having to create a mammoth thread of unbelievable complexity like the last one...

Kristin--that's very clever and devious. Christian might look into that if he can't get the wheels moving on other fronts. Did you just go directly to a department at Complutense and ask for permission to audit? Or did you have an inside "enchufe"?

Chica--is there any such thing as part-time study here in Spain? I suppose that given the cost, you could register for a program and just attend a few classes and let the others slide. I may do this myself.

Boneshaker (and everyone else)--what are you going to study?

Wow, I was considering the same thing for two or three years from now. I'd probably apply to Complutense because they seem to be one of few schools that have the PhD that interests me (Linguistics). If you go through the process, let me know how it is and specifically how helpful professors are on doctoral level. The one thing that holds me back is that I've heard Spanish professors aren't as involved with their students as American professors are. Is it different on doctoral level or the same? I absolutely love what I'm studying now and would like to continue after I graduate next spring, but sadly my university here in Miami doesn't offer a PhD program.

Melinda

The plot thickens...

First off, from what I can tell, there are virtually no Masters degrees in Humanities or Social Sciences at Complutense. The "segundo ciclo" of the licenciatura is considered to be the equivalent of a US Masters program. The next step is the doctorado.

As always seems to happen, the more I talk to the bureacrats, the more confused I get...

Today I went over to the "Negociado de Convalidaciones" which is in the building across from the Ciudad Universitaria stop on the other side of Avenida de Complutense. This is the office where you go (to try) to have your previous degree recognized so that you can study at Complutense. This process is not the same as "homologacion" which can take years and makes your previous degree a Spanish degree that can be recognized by any Spanish university.

According to the woman that I spoke to, they will not "convalidar" a US bachelor's degree--at least not for the purpose of entering into a doctorate program.

According to her, without a masters degree, I would need to start over at the beginning doing an entire "carrera," that is a full-blown licenciatura (3-5 years). This is different from what my professor said when I asked her...

In order to enter in a licenciatura track, students over 25 must take a test. Registration for this test is very soon and someone from my class is doing it:

http://www.ucm.es/info/ucmp/pags.php?tp=Prueba%20de%20acceso%20de%20alumnos%20mayores%20de%2025%20a�os&a=estudios&d=0001385.php

You register for the test in the same building as the "convalidacion" office. I'm not sure if having a US bachelor's degree can get you out of the test.... I'm also not sure if having a bachelor's degree could allow one to skip to the "segundo ciclo" of licenciatura... Or, if my suspicions are correct, perhaps the best use for a US bachelor's degree is as a high-fiber-content papel higenico....

So now that I've done nothing but cast confusion:

Greguito--if you are thinking of studying at the Licenciatura level next year, you should probably figure out very soon if you need to take the Old Geezers test to enter, as I believe registration ends next week... I'm thinking of contacting our old history professor to find out what he knows (and whether I can use him as an "enchufe," because I would like to study history). I'll post back when/if I find out more.

quote:

originally posted by mariposita:
[qb]Greguito--if you are thinking of studying at the Licenciatura level next year, you should probably figure out very soon if you need to take the Old Geezers test to enter, as I believe registration ends next week... I'm thinking of contacting our old history professor to find out what he knows (and whether I can use him as an "enchufe," because I would like to study history). I'll post back when/if I find out more. [/qb]

I'm going to sit the test, just in case. That is, if I can figure out the application process! I must admit, I don't really fancy my chances of scoring too well in the test... It's a long time since I've brushed up on a lot of those topics listed in that PDF you linked to; if it were in English it would be another story... I'd have a chance of bluffing my way through! Ah well, will give it a shot anyway...

Thanks for sharing all the info Mariposita!

Hey Greguito! To sign up for the test, you have to go to the building right across the street from the Ciudad Universitaria metro stop. When you walk into the main lobby, there's a guy at the desk with a little sign pasted haphazardly up that says he's registering people for the test. I think you'll need to do an ingreso (there's a Caja Madrid in the same building).

I've decided not to do the test. Instead, I'm taking a two-pronged approach (god that sounds cheesy).

1. I'm going to pretend that I didn't talk to the convalidation people and get their bad news last week. I'm requesting my transcript from my previous university and I'm going to take it to the History department and see what they think. If I get a bad reaction, then I'm going over to the literature department. With their support, I think it may help me to get partial credit for my previous coursework from the convalidation committee (a.k.a. convalidacion parcial). This means that I may be able to enter a licenciatura program at the "segundo ciclo." I've all but given up on getting in at the "tercero ciclo" (doctorate level). But this is a long shot.

2. At the same time, I'm going to start putting feelers out about being an "alumno visitante." This is much more likely to work out. As a visiting student, I can sign up for any class I want, provided there is space. I can take tests and get a certificate saying that I completed and passed the class. The catch is that I would get absolutely no official credit from a Spanish University. I would pay for my classes by the credit. No test necessary.

The lady in the info office at the above-mentioned building told me that for visa purposes, visiting students can get a "letter of invitation" in June that I can take to the comisaria. Sounds vague enough to be recipe for more summer fun on General Pardinas...

So to sum things up, for non-EU students entering Complutense, you have the following choices:

1. Take an entrance exam. Start from the beginning (5 years for a licenciatura).

2. Try to partially "convalidar" your previous degree to knock a few years off or enter further up the chain (easiest if you have a masters degree in the subject you want to study and had a very organized and logical progression of classes--not the case for many Americans. A hex upon you if you have a double major like I do.). You will also have to prove fluency in Spanish.

3. Decide to subvert the whole Spanish educational system by practicing "guerrilla education." Sign up as a visiting student, take a mish-mash of interdisciplinary classes. Synthesize this divergent knowledge into something called wisdom. Wait for those creepy buildings to crumble under the weight of their outdated elitism. Who needs a degree from "the man" when it's all about the learning?

Okay, I've gone to far. More to follow...

:cry: I had a double major too Mariposita!!!

Thanks for all the information that you have posted. It is very very interesting (and confusing). I think I am going to sit this one out. Heck with the business, I don't think I need to be worrying about furthering my education for now!

Yikes--now I have officially discouraged someone from pursuing higher education!

Chica--
I should have qualified what I said above...

All of the above info applies only to Complutense, which, from what I can tell, is the most hard-line and elitist educational institution in Spain.

It also only applies to entering into a strictly academic program like History, Literature, Philsophy, etc. If you were to pursue a degree in Business or a more professional "carrera"--which tend to follow a model closer to the American "Masters"--then it could be "otra cosa."

In any event, I'll appoint myself as the mm guinea pig and look forward to running around all of Complutense's habitrails and hamster wheels until I get somewhere--or give up and decide to live happily amidst my own intellectual filth...

I went to the university today also. I've been doing a bit of research too and the business of homologaci�n, convalidaci�n etc seems like it's going to be awfully difficult... But I'll try anyway.

I went to the Vicerrectorado and followed the arrows to the "Informaci�n" office, where they told me I was in the wrong place to find out about convalidaci�n. So I followed some more arrows and lo, I wind up in an office with the word "Convalidaci�n" written above the door. The helpful folk there tell me that to convalidate prior studies I have to go and do it at the specific centre where I am going to enrol, where I will need to have the correct document with the correct "apostilla" and a translation.

All this seems a little bit difficult seeing as I doubt that I have the kind of documentation here that they would accept (specifically, I have an official "Transcript of Academic Record" which is in English; I do not have the actual "degree" itself, because the darn thing is A3 size and framed and I didn't bring it with me).

So I decide to sit that test which Mariposita talked about. I go to the appropriate counter in the foyer and they sell me the forms (you have to pay 1,50�). She wanted to see my "tarjeta de extranjero" before giving me the forms. They give you two forms, one for doing the bank transfer of 66,32� to pay for the inscription, and one for providing the university with your details. They also give you a form version of the sworn declaration in which you can just fill in the blanks and sign it. Given that it's a sworn declaration I have no idea who or how I have to get someone to witness it (and probably stamp it, as is the usual pattern in Spain). I have to find that out pretty soon too, because tomorrow is the last day for submitting the form.

Anyway, of interest on the form is this:

quote:

Una vez abonadas estas tasas, para poder presentarse a las pruebas, deber� formalizar su inscripci�n en el Centro correspondiente.

So I guess the next step will be to enrol (or pre-enrol) in May (I think), and then apply for an extension of my student visa (which expires in May!), and then sit the test... We'll see how we go... I haven't even decided which course to apply for yet.

By the way, this is an excellent site with a huge amount of information for prospective foreign students in Spain.

Greguito--
Thanks for the update on your adventures in the "Vicerectorrado" (at least that's what the sign out in front says, though it says "Vicerectorrado de..." I don't know what of, because the rest of the sign is buried in several feet of dirt).

That part about the Apostille bothers me, too. I asked my University--who are sending my transcript--about this and they didn't feel they could do this. I told them to stamp the hell out of the thing and give every seal of approval that they could... we'll see where that gets me. If that doesn't do the trick, maybe they can do it at the US embassy...

From what I've heard, homologacion can take years, so I think convalidacion is the way to go--however, if you convalidar, you could be in a bind if you later decided to switch universities before you finished your Spanish degree.

It sounds like you got the same response that I did, which is that for undergrad studies and partial "convalidation," you go directly to the "facultad" to get them to start the convalidation process. Did you happen to catch who in the department handles this?

That sucks that they only did your visa through May... Did they indicate what kind of papers you could get to extend it, since the timing is a bit off?

Good luck on the test...