Not wishing to be overly militant-sounding, but isn�t it time the teachers in Madrid stood up for their rights?? The minimum standard hourly rate all over the world for teaching is 15 dollars / euros and hour � why not over here? Personally I insist on this rate and I get it (schools may groan and grumble a little, but it�s well within their margins and I always get it). Many of my mates however didn�t get this as they didn�t dare insist when they started � they made all sorts of excuses such as they lacked experience, it was a small school, that was all that was on offer etc. etc. � why make excuses for schools ?!?! Later, my friends, realizing how precious their teaching slots were, asked for, and of course, got 15 euros an hour (this includes Americans, Canadians, Ozzies etc. with no work visas). As we all know, money here is VERY tight, and for a teacher an extra couple of euros an hour makes the difference between breaking even and being really actually poor! Schools are nothing but offices without teachers, they need us � let�s put our collective feet down this September and INSIST ON 15 EUROS AN HOUR!!! (of course this does include all you non-working visa types�!)
(Just to clarify things, I personally already get 15 euros and hour, this is not self-interest talking, just seeing good mates struggle for ages until they got smart!)
Posts: 129 | Location: Madrid | Registered: 28 July 2004
Scooter. I agree that there should be a minimum wage for English teachers here in Madrid and 15 euros sounds good to me for that. But I started teaching English in Asia and I can tell you that 30 euros an hour is the average pay just about anywhere over there for the same thing you would do over here in Madrid. The difference is that people actually want to be here and live in Spain enjoying the life and times, which means that you have to sacrifice the higher money that you could make for doing exactly the same thing in a less desirable place to be. There needs to be some sort of compromise and weeding out of all the people here in Madrid who teach without wanting to but do it anyway just because it is the only job they can do without being legal or without experience. There needs to be more alternative jobs for people who do not have working papers or do not want to teach or look after children.
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Posts: 881 | Location: Madrid | Registered: 08 November 2002
I agree! There needs to be some kind of union for English teachers because as Rocco mentioned, people out of fear of not having papers or not enough experience or whatever reason, don't demand a minimum of hours or pay that will allow them to live a life without fear of paying the rent. English Teachers Unite. I'm with you.
Posts: 102 | Location: American in Madrid | Registered: 07 July 2003
i think that "Chica" and a few other board members have an "English teachers Collective" and have met in madrid but one of them would need to confirm and give you detials.
as you said, money is tight here and so is time. i am sure that nobody has the time to actually get a teachers union together. that would be a huge undertaking and everyone here who teaches english seems to be very busy just trying to make ends meet or with their own businesses.
it is a catch-22, no time to start the union and no union to get better conditions and have more time and money, a vicious cycle.
many will agree that a union is needed and will support it but you will have a hard time getting someone to actually organize everything.
if you ask me, the problem is that there are too many "teachers" (backpackers who have never taught in their lives) in madrid who are just "teaching" to get by and pay their bills for the brief time they are here. they screw up the market for the serious teachers.
so, while i am sure you mean well in your request that teachers take a stand, there will unfortunately always be a LOT of scabs who will take the empty positionss for 9-12 euros/hour
also, until the schools and language consulting firms take a stand and only accept experienced, qualified teachers, you will never get rid of the "backpacker teacher".
and then there are the students of english, they also need to demand a quality teacher to make this all happen.
scooter, i think that "Chica" and a few other board members have an "English teachers Collective" and have met in madrid but one of them would need to confirm and give you detials.
The ENGLISH TEACHERS COLLECTIVE is not a place to come and talk about a union. :lo:
It is only for people to exchange ideas about teaching and sharing materials.
I suggest that you get a union started scooter. The one with the most heart for it has to be the leader. Take a stand and make it happen, my man.
Have a great day,
Shawn
"Wanna fly, you got to give up the shit that weighs you down" - SONG OF SOLOMON, Toni Morrison
Posts: 1255 | Location: Richmond, VA but in MADRID now | Registered: 10 February 2002
Yes, jer is right... I have organized an English teaching collective where the aim it to provide a networking opportunity for serious teachers. We have disbanded for the summer months, but I am planning on a strong re-start in September. I would welcome any participation and feedback on your part. Feel free to send me an email.
I was quite disgusted the other day when talking to a teacher who told me that he was paid 10� an hour and that was for traveling to see the client. What that really breaks down into is little more than 3� an hour when you factor in transportation time.
Rocco has a point that in that English teaching pays more in Japan... but one also has to recognize that the cost of living is much higher in Japan than it is in Spain.
However, as jer pointed out, you get what you pay for. There are many many "backpacker type" teachers out there... who are here on a whim and don�t take the profession seriously. They show up late to class, they show up with hangovers, they show up unprepared, if they show up at all. Or quite simply, they quit their classes when something more interesting comes along really screwing up the learning process (if there really was one) for the student in the mean time. Trust me on this one, if you haven�t encountered them yet, you will soon. I have many students who complain to me of just this issue. Frankly, those teachers aren�t worth the 10� an hour let alone 15�.
I will get off my soapbox. I have posted on this issue more than enough times. A quick search of the board will show you just that.
Ah yes...teachers have NEVER been paid appropriately!
I have a family full of teachers. It has always disgusted me how minimal the pay is for the people who teach the skills the rest of the world needs. And as others have mentioned, there are always those teachers who don't really care that seem to get paid the same as those that do. Or, as mentioned earlier, they skew the market by accepting any amount "just to get by". Meanwhile those with legitimate desire, those whose career is as an educator, who are fighting to be paid appropriately are being sold short.
Educators ought to be treated as the elite! That may sound absurd to some, but think about it...teachers are educating our children, our professionals our leaders!! Why is it their income is so minimal?
As I have mentioned under a couple of other topics. I would like to teach English when I get to Spain mid-November. I don't have a degree in teaching. But I've taught and thoroughly enjoy it. I don't plan on being a teacher forever. But in the mean time I am looking at getting a Celta or Tefl cert so that I know I am versed and hold the proper credentials. In no way, shape or form, am I implying that those without aren't or won't be good educators! If I am not mistaken, jer, you used to be a Spanish teacher. I'm sure you knew of teachers with the right education that were poor educators. Maybe they didn't care how well they taught because they had tenure and they could, once again, get by?
I agree, if it will help, there ought to be some sort of Union of Educators. As far as the 15e minimum, I'm not there (in Spain) yet so I'll have to take your all's word for it. If that sounds like a reasonable standard rate...I'm all for it.
I believe those of us who are or plan on being educators and are serious about the power, influency and the difference we can make in other people's lives, we ought to be paid as though we're educating the world!!
Wow, quick response!! I have a lot of faith in people not to scab too much as in the end even your backpacker teacher (as of course I and probably all of us have been at some murky distant point!) can see that if we stand together our lives will be better (or at least not so poor...) and anyway, accepting low wages is really shooting yourself in the foot big-time! (both for teachers as well as schools: nobody really needs low-paid transients when they�re trying to build a good reputation) Of course nobody has time to organise a union - I don�t think we really need to - it�s as simple as this... Don�t accept low wages in September/January when the schools are desperate: they WILL pay YOU! (whoever you may be...)
Posts: 129 | Location: Madrid | Registered: 28 July 2004
I have a question for you. I have noticed not everyone has a ESL teaching certificate. And, it sounds like many are still getting jobs without them. I have found the certs can be quite expensive. Also, they don't seem to have an onsite location near me here in the States. I am thinking, if it is possible, that I may have to teach without it to start. How easy is this to do?
Quite honestly Modigy, in most places all you need is a university degree, a passport for a native English-speaking country, and a pulse (and sometimes not even all of those...) If you add to this a sense of humour and a genuine will to help your students to learn and to speak then you will be fine anywhere (BUT ASK FOR 15 EUROS AN HOUR!!!)
Posts: 129 | Location: Madrid | Registered: 28 July 2004
Good to hear!!! I will get myself a t-shirt made that says "Will only teach for 15 Euros or more!". I'll wear this under my suit and tie. And, when wages come up, I'll open up my shirt like Superman and proclaim my earnings expectations!! :jeje:
Thank you for the info. I will definetly be notifying them of my 15e expectations.
You don't need the certification, especially if you have some teaching experience. In fact, my understanding from talking to people who take it is that it helps more with how to teach and classroom management, than actually going into the details of how to teach English well. If you've got no classroom experience I would imagine it could be quite helpful.
With no cert but lots of teaching experience (albeit not English) I've had no problem finding jobs, and all have been 15E except one, which was a few stops away on my metro line so I took it. I definitely hold out for that...and more with private classes.
tefl: everyone i know who took it said the same thing, you learn a little bit about planning a class, a very little bit about grammar, and a little bit about classroom management. i didn't take a tefl and have been working steady for years. that said, if i were to start over and had the money for the tefl, i'd probably take it. as it was i spent my first year of teaching, spending three hours of study for every one hour of teaching. it was the hard way around for sure. but like i said i didn't have 1000 euros for the tefl. it is really up to you to decide. one thing you will get from a tefl is how to comport yourself in front of a class full of students. fortunately i love the spotlight and don't mind 12 blank faces staring at me, but for others this could be intimidating.
training: so what do you do if you don't do tefl and don't have skills as a teacher? one thing is try to get on at a big academy. they pay less...way less than 15 an hour, but they do have libraries that are available to you, there are often regular training sessins, and there are lots of experienced teachers around to help you out and give you advice. you can also find tons of info on the internet, there are loads of sites offering everything from vocab quizzes to step-by-step ready-made classes. also places like Chica's Teaching Collective are invaluable resources.
the real deal: having said all that, what i think is the bottom line in becoming a good teacher is liking the work. as jer said, there are so many backpacker teachers who really don't care. they hate teaching and are doing it only because they don't want to do anything else. i personally love teaching. my background is events, restaurant mgt, and writing and i studied anthropology, who would have known i would love teaching esl as much as i do. really i think this makes a difference. if you really really hate it, i don't think you'll ever be good at it no matter how much trng you have. plus you'll never get above 15 as you will never have the confidence in the job to demand it. good money is out there if you are good. i just finished an month long intensive course for 30 an hour. why? because i built my reputation with the client and because i'm worth it. a backpacker teacher who is just doing this as a sideline until the next vacation will never get that kind of money.
the wages: yes, scooter has a point. we are so underpaid, especially when you start figuring out how much the academies are making off of us. but trying to band together a crew as motley and far-flung as english teachers is not going to happen. there are far too many backpacker teachers out there and far too many crooked academies willing to hire them. i think it is foolhardy to start demanding 15 on your first go with an academy. it is better to get in, prove how good you are, and then demand it. academies know how valuable a good teacher is. if you are prompt, prepare classes well, and produce happy, improving students, your academy will go out of its way to keep you. then again...here is a horror story from a really big academy, let's call them ...nevermind...if you want to know pm me, a teacher i know who has been there three years and works 15 to 20 hours a week doing very specialized classes asked the big boss for a raise a few weeks ago. the big boss began yelling and cursing at said teacher. even stood up and pointed in said teacher's face and said...i barely make enough money off you, i'll kick you out in a minute, never come to my office again. mind you this academy has branches all over the world and said owner is a friend of the royals. so what happened? my friend is still working there. it is good, steady work. and that is where the academies prevail. you can make a lot more money running all over town, doing privates and juggling your agenda. if you are at an academy you don't move, you have libraries, computers, copiers. sometimes the tradeoff is worth it.
anyway, i have a class to plan, best get to it. good luck to all you real dedicated teachers out there!
candy
Posts: 1001 | Location: MADRID! | Registered: 09 November 2002
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Or quite simply, they quit their classes when something more interesting comes along really screwing up the learning process (if there really was one) for the student in the mean time. Trust me on this one, if you haven�t encountered them yet, you will soon. I have many students who complain to me of just this issue. Frankly, those teachers aren�t worth the 10� an hour let alone 15�.
