I�ve read quite a bit on this forum, and on Rocco�s very useful write-up on Madrid Insider, but I thought I�d ask for advice from some of you guys who�ve been through the apartment hunting process.

I saw an extraordinarily nice and decent-value flat today. Two catches: first, they want either an aval bancario or a four month deposit, and second, they want an additional month�s worth of rent for the first year for �gastos de la comunidad.�"

My questions are:

1. How exactly do aval bancarios work, and what do banks require to grant them, and do you have to pay them a certain fee? I read in Madrid Insider that an aval bancario is effectively a guarantee from a bank that they can take � year�s rent from your account under certain conditions �(I assume mainly if you don�t pay your rent or damage the apartment). Can they be for a smaller amount of money than one year�s rent? The landlady was saying that if I didn�t pay, it�d take about four months to evict me legally and that�s why they want four months deposit.

2. Have any of you heard of horror stories about disputes with landlords about deposits? Some landlords I�ve spoken with only want one month of deposit, others two- but this is the first one who�s asked for four.

3. Is it normal to pay up for�"gastos de la comunidad" up front, and is a month�s rent for a year�s worth of gastos reasonable? I don�t recall reading anywhere that these are paid up front, and a year�s worth of gastos- works out to be gastos of 8.3% of the rent. (The rent itself isn�t bad, I think of it in terms of net cost per month anyway and it�s still better than anything else I�ve looked at, but I�m curious as to whether this is really normal.)

Thanks a lot for any advice.


Sunny

Hi sunny, not sure if my tuppence worth means anything on the mainland, but as a landlord :jeje: here on Lanzarote here are my thoughts/experiences. I have a very small flat which I rent out. The tenants pay the rent into my bank account every month (often late!!) but the mere fact that they pay it into the bank means they are protected. I cannot get them out even if I wanted to; not without taking them to court anyhow. I would have liked to take a whopping great deposit from them, but I only took one month. They do have a renewable yearly contract with me, again this means nothing here, once they are in they are there for at least five years on the same rent, regardless what the contract says!

I pay the community charge on the apartment. I could ask them to pay it, but if they didn�t it would still be down to me, as community is down to the owner of the property.

Hope this helps in some way, and if the rules here are different to the peninsula, someone please tell me!!!!!

pd I like these new emoticons - or are they only new to me!!!!!!!!

Yikes, that's scary stuff. I am worried about this myself, because there is no way that we'll be able to provide an aval (it will take us too long to get our papers so that we can open a bank account).

Is there really so much leeway in what an owner is allowed to require from a renter? There must be some laws that protect renters from unscrupulous landlords (I ask naively)...

Here in DC, you can't ask for more than one month's rent as a deposit and you don't sign a lease longer than one year (renters are allowed to go month to month into eternity thereafter).
Does anyone know what the laws are in Madrid? I don't think I would want to live in a place where a landlord was asking for more than the law allows--that's a BAD sign...

mariposita, be afraid! be VERY afraid

you would need a lawyers (spanish one) advice on this but as far as i know, the landlords here can "hacer lo que les sale de los cojones" :y: before you move and/or sign a contract.

this will not translate well literally but it basically means they have you by the shorthairs and can do whatever they want.

once the contract is signed, both parties have to stick to it (more or less) and there are laws that stipulate the amt. a landlord can raise rent and at what intervals.

i am not sure but i do not think there are laws here that dictate what a landlord can ask for as a security deposit.

there is a couple on this board (who shall remain anonymous unless they want to discover themselves) who was forced to pay 12 months, YES, A FULL YEAR , up front in rent as they did not have time to get an "aval" and were in a hurry to move i don't remember the exact story behind it all but i do recall they paid the year in advance.

i think it had a lot to do with the fact that they were foreigners, the landlord took serious advantage of that and of the fact that they really needed the apt. ASAP.

in our case (ena and i), at home we had to pay one months rent for a security deposit. at my office, i had to leave 2 months.

sunny, you are being abused by that landlord in my opinion but i am afraid there is VERY little you can do about it.

saludos,
jer...

Sounds like another rite of passage...

I think I would feel a lot safer paying rent in advance than give a bigger deposit (though a year is definitely pushing it to the limit). Deposits are always so hard to get back, and if they know you are leaving the country, I could really see someone taking advantage.

Sunny--post back about what you work out... I'll do the same next month, as I'm sure we are going to run into some pretty crazy stuff as well (though we'll be bringing a Spaniard with us--I hope that helps somewhat)...

What happened to us (and yes, it was us), was that we indeed GOT the Aval, to the specifications of the landlord exactly. The very DAY WE WERE TO MOVE, the landlord's WIFE decided that wasn't good enough for her and demanded a full year's rent in cash up front! :y: :cry:

It was not fun.

I'm sure it was discrimination, because when she actually MET us the day of the signing, she was suddenly all contrite and the next day her husband said she "felt bad" for not trusting us.

Spare me your pain, lady.

Fortunately we adore our apartment.

Dont know if this will help but there is a web page call "www.iabogado.com" that is also available in English "www.spainlawyer.com"
And may have something .

Thanks, that's a very informative site! Here is the link to the rental laws:
Law of Urban Lettings (Ley de Arrendamientos Urbanos) of 1994

Clealy few are actually following the rules, but it looks like Spain has a very strict laws protecting renters). Only one month's deposit can be required. Rent cannot be required in advance. Renters have the first right to buy a property when it is being sold. Etc, etc... Even when no one is following them, it's good to know the rules, because it can help you negotiate.

ups! didn't see this post earlier!
I'm a lawyer and yes, definitely the law protects the tenant much more than the landlord. however, as Jer said, before the contract is signed the lanlord can do pretty much "lo que le salga de los cojones" as is a private contract and beside some abusive parts(and that's another subject...what do you or the law call "abusing"!!) that are forbidden in the law, what the parts pact is a contract.
I wouldn't worry about getting the deposit back as long as is clearly specifyied on the contract.
(ok, and maybe 'cose most of my friends are lawyers as well!)
I cannot promise anything but if you have any other query (a bit more specific) I'll be glad to help u!
cheers!

My experience in renting it�s that you �never� receive the deposit back, because the landlord said something about the cleaning , or the paint or some other damage........Once I rented an apartment and ( of course) I hanged some pictures, well, the lady told me that the house was full of holes and she never gave me back the money...The next time I will hang the pictures with cellophan.

And never, never...rent an apartment to a lawyer

Well I intend to continue to be a "nice" landlord!!!!!!! My tenants will get their deposit back, unless they (or their dogs) have really torn the place apart. You have to expect wear and tear on the furniture etc (especially as I managed to fit out a complete 2 bedroom apartment with everything bar a TV and microwave for under 200 mil!!!)

I was interested to read that tenants can have first refusal if the landlord intends to sell. When I spoke to my tenants last week I asked them whether they would like to buy the apartment if I sold it, not realising that they had that right!!!!

hey, for the record, i have always gotten my deposit back from every landlord (in u.s.a. and spain) that i have rented from.

i usually leave the places in much better shape than when i move in so landlords seem to like me, go figure

saludos,
jer...

Jer, if they want they will find something. And I want to think that the persons that do that are a minority.

yes M.C. but one thing i do not understand is how a landlord can justify keeping a security deposit of say 700 euros (a normal rent) for a few holes in the wall from hanging paintings

did they not just keep part of the deposit?

saludos,
jer...

Hey guys, thanks very much for all the very useful advice. I told the landlady late last night that I was willing to put in a three month deposit. She said she�d get back to me today. She hasn�t! What I was going to propose if she said no was that I put in a four-month deposit but we have an agreement, preferably in writing, that I wouldn�t pay any rent for the last four months, in effect transforming the deposit to an advance payment for the last four months. I�m sweating a bit tonight because I don�t want to lose this place, and her phone�s been switched off all day, and the owner of my second choice place called me tonight to say she was showing the place to some other people... Oh well, I�ll report tomorrow on what happens.

I haven�t had any problems getting deposits back in the past either, in both New York and Hong Kong, but I only had one/two months deposit respectively there-- four seems a bit much! (Also in both New York and Hong Kong I had lawyer friends...starwarsfreak where are you???

I do find it odd, and very tenant-friendly, that tenants have the right of first refusal to buy the flats they rent, and that leases go for five years with only tenants having the right to cancel every year!