quote:

Out of curiosity, was everyone in the bar treated the same as you were?

Good question, Bonnie.

Shawn

quote:

Out of curiosity, was everyone in the bar treated the same as you were?

Just my friends and I, all young professionals, were searched as I far as recall.

AS far as I am concerned, if the bar was doing something illegal it should have been shut down. If people had been doing something illegal, they should have been arrested.

Otherwise, obviously it's just harrassment.

quote:

I read your first post and the last question you put out, but what type of questions, exactly, do you hope to have answered?

Can the police search you without evidence or probable cause in Spain?

quote:

Otherwise, obviously it's just harrassment.

OK. I'll give you this much.

Merriam Webster says:

quote:

Main Entry:
ha·rass Listen to the pronunciation of harass Listen to the pronunciation of harass
Pronunciation:
\hə-ˈras; ˈher-əs, ˈha-rəs\
Function:
transitive verb
Etymology:
French harasser, from Middle French, from harer to set a dog on, from Old French hare, interjection used to incite dogs, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German hier here — more at here
Date:
1617

1 a: exhaust, fatigue b (1): to annoy persistently (2): to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct 2: to worry and impede by repeated raids <harassed the enemy>
synonyms see worry
— ha·rass·er noun
— ha·rass·ment Listen to the pronunciation of harassment Listen to the pronunciation of harassment \-mənt\ noun

Also, you are telling us the story from your point of view and we were not there to witness it.That's a fact and I was always told that there are two sides to every story.

As far as arrests go, maybe the people that they were looking for simply weren't there. They could've been pissed off about that and targeted other people, but we'll never know because we never know what people are thinking. Notice my use of the contraction could've because I do not know. This is just a supposition.

Many times, we have to take our emotions out of a situation and take a look at it again with fresh eyes. I can speak on this point because as a Black man, I don't want to think that all wrongs that have happened to me have come my way just becasue I am Black.

I think that the wound is too fresh for you right now. Write down what happened, how it made you feel and come back to it with fresh eyes and a diferent perspective.

The reason that I am replying like I am is because if you call the Embassy, don't expect anyone to take your side. They, too, will look at this objectively and ask tough questions. Just make sure that you have the answers.

Shawn

[QUOTE] As far as arrests go, maybe the people that they were looking for simply weren't there. They could've been pissed off about that and targeted other people,[/QUOTE

I would love to see a cop in court who had that as his defense.

quote:

Can the police search you without evidence or probable cause in Spain?

Thank you MapMan. Now we have gotten to the essence of the question that you want answered. it took a while to get there, but we got there and that's the most important part of this discussion.

Please call the Embassy and ask and write that article. Make a change and let us know either what the Embassy said or where we can get a copy of that article.

Suerte,

Shawn

quote:

Is this police brutality? How does one define police brutality? What exactly does it look like? How does it feel? What senses are involved?

Hey Shawn--

Unless I misunderstood him, I don't think mapman was implying that it was police brutality, but was questioning the legitimacy of the search itself.

In most democratic countries with decent civil rights, police don't have the right to stop someone in a public place and physically search him/her without a warrant or some sort of legitimate cause for suspicion or fear for public safety or the safety of the police officer. (Of course it still happens.)

Mapman could call the embassy (or a lawyer or even go to the comisaría and ask around) to try to find out just exactly what his rights were in this situation. The question is, if he was doing absolutely nothing that would arouse suspicion, did he have the right to refuse the search?

I read an interesting article not too long ago about how the cops in Spain used to be able to legally search hotel rooms without a warrant. As I remember, they did this to some reporters (big mistake) who then exposed the practice and the laws were changed to extend the right to privacy to temporary lodging (an important concern for tourists).

Feel free to use whatever you want, mapman.

Oops, I missed all that stuff on the second page, which makes the above post a little redundant. I'm slow.

quote:

Unless I misunderstood him, I don't think mapman was implying that it was police brutality, but was questioning the legitimacy of the search itself.

Mariposita

You did not misunderstand him at all. I questioned it because after having taught English and being back in the States, I am amazed at how many people are not using the right words for the right situation. I was just questioning if this bordered on brutality or was simply harassment. You know that there is a fine line for everything.

Shawn

Hi Mariposita,

I wouldn't say it was police brutaliy, perhaps abuse of authority - and abuse of my cojones, frankly.

Almost forgot to mention: Two years ago I was walking down c/genova when the Civil Guard stopped me in the street and asked to see my ID.

This is why I am getting ticked off. It's not the first time. You see, in the moment the cop demanded to search me, I wanted to refuse and let him do whatever: beat me, drag me down to the station, whatever.

I just want to know if the law is behind me when I make that choice.

quote:

Two years ago I was walking down c/genova when the Civil Guard stopped me in the street and asked to see my ID.

The same thing happened to me in 2004, but on C/Alcalá. They were undercover police officers. I showed them my ID and they left without incident.

I was pissed at first, but then it dawned out me that they were just doing their job. I had nothing to hide. After that, I found a place to sit down in Retiro to continue reading "Possessing The Secret of Joy" by Alice Walker.

Shawn

Mapman--
I think they do have the right to ask anyone for ID, but searching/frisking you is different matter.

A couple of years ago, I was walking down c/Preciados in a hurry and a cop waved me over (along with a bunch of other random people) to ask me if he could see our IDs, I just played completely stupid and walked away briskly into the throngs of people and nothing happened (but I'm a 5 foot 1 woman, I knew the cops weren't going to go medieval on my ass right there in the middle of Puerta del Sol).

Are you sure they were really cops and they weren't just some guys who like to go around busting guiris' balls for fun?

Another question is if you got searched illegally and they DID find something, could they use it against you? In the US, they couldn't (or maybe I should say, shouldn't).

I don't think cops who stop people randomly and demand to see their IDs are doing their jobs. Then again, I doubt it's random. You were probably profiled for some reason.

So they have that right... but I think they are abusing it too by stopping people for no reason.

Yeah, they were cops. They were undercover but had badges. I don't know what the law is here. In the states, had they searched me without consent, nothing they found would be valid in court.

quote:

I'm a 5 foot 1 woman, I knew the cops weren't going to go medieval on my ass right there in the middle of Puerta del Sol

Now whenever I feel myself getting a little depressed, I will value this image, Mariposita and laugh.

As far as undercover cops go, we do have to be careful because a lot of them are actually crooks who steal from tourists and immigrants. I never carry a lot of money with me anyway, so you can have my damned 5 Euros. I may have to fight you to the death for that metro pass, though.

Shawn