I�m not in Spain,or American,but since I started this thread,I have to say,if we don�t learn from history,we repeat it.


As the UK did in the 30s with Chamberlain�s �peace in out time�with Hitler.

From posts here, and watching BBC,CNN,its obvious EU is very socialist,anti war, so what I say won�t change you.

Did you see the endless obits in the NY Times of the 3000 9-11 victims?

This morning we learn that CNN has discovered an Al Qaeda document which set forth a plan to get Spain to pull its troops out of Iraq. Apparently the document was posted on a computer bulletin board some months ago. This document talked about developing a strategy to force the conservative government of Spain out of office and elect socialists. And just how was that going to be done? Terrorist attacks, that's how.

Now Spain is loudly touting its plans to become one of the Axis of Weasels, joining German, France, Belgium and other Euroweenie countries in a program of appeasement toward Islamic Jihadists


the Islamo-fascist movement has scored a tremendous strategic victory with its attacks last week in Spain.

Dutch economist Bernard Walschots nails it: "Al Qaeda or its affiliates have toppled a democratic government for the first time. This may have dramatic implications for the Western democracies."

The Islamic Jihadists have just toppled the government of a major Western nation

Like I said Roland everyone is entiltled to their opinion and just because your voice is the most outspoken doesn`t mean it is the best or only way to look at things. I respect your opinion, but I think you need to respect other people`s too.

quote:

originally posted by Roland:
[QB] Sorry Gringa but that's just ridiculous. The idea of flying airplanes into buildings occurred to any number of teenagers while playing Flight Simulator.

Sorry Roland, but that is ridiculous!! You seem to be comparing real life with a computer game! Which may explain a few things..

quote:

originally posted by Roland:
Plus the invasion of Iraq is not just leaders doing what they think is best to combat terrorism. It's out and out immoral, illegal, and unethical. How is it justified for the US, Britain, and Spain to invade a country that poses ABSOLUTELY no threat to them and by doing so killing thousands of innocent people?

I'll bet anything that you can't show me any proof that there was 'ABSOLUTELY no threat'

eusk: I think you're wrong. What would Bush know about war? He used his life of privilege to dodge the vietnam war. He obviously lacks the skills to tactfully deal with other leaders. Visionary my foot! You're dreaming, kid. The guy is the worst president in American history.

The recent attack on Spain has little to do with something that happened 600 years ago! Puhhhlease! That is absurd. The attack has been merely a way for al quaeda to maniuplate world politics. Why do you think it happened immediately before election day? In this case, they've accomplished their goal. I still believe that if Spain wants no part in the fight against terror, then it should withdraw. That doesn't preclude the country from another attack but it makes another unlikely.

Terrorists/muslims do have an entirely different set of values and that's where the problem exists. As evil and repugnant as we might think that they are we cannot go around imposing our belief systems on other people! Do you realize how ignorant it is to believe that one group of humans is placed on this earth to rule over another? As much as I personally disagree with politics in the middle east, I don't believe that they are all animals that must be harnessed. Although Spaniards disagree with terrorism/muslims, they are intelligent enough understand their place in the world. For Spain, it's not about backing down, it's about being smart.

If you want to go fight terrorism or flex your muscles, then by all means, go over to saudi arabia and take them out just don't expect others to take your punishment.

quote:

originally posted by Hair:
[qb]

quote:

[/qb]

eusk: Although Spaniards disagree with terrorism/muslims, they are intelligent enough understand their place in the world. For Spain, it's not about backing down, it's about being smart. If. [/QB]

hmmm...i didn't get this one, Hair. Place in the world? Just not sure what that means. Sorry.

One of the things that keeps spinnin' around in my head is that Spain was already involved in this thing with Al-Queda years before M-11. Unless the network and cable news are blowing smoke, Spain was a bridgehead to the U.S. 9/11 attacks - with money and/or people involved in the attack being funneled through Spain. I understand all the passion focused on M-11 but Spain's fight with Al-Queda began years ago - not when Aznar decided to send Spanish troops into Iraq.

Roland sure does spoil for a good fight, doesn't he?

My guess is that gringa can certainly imagine that a bunch of pissed-off and resourceful kids could, in their wildest dreams, come up with the idea of flying planes into buildings. But I think her point was more in the realm of what butthead would think it a perfectly suitable, reasoned, and effective tactic to accomplish some larger goal? You take some posts too literal.

Your going to alienate yourself on the board. I'm all for shooting spitballs and seeing what dust gets kicked up in the conversation but calling someone's post, one that was obviously born out of a passionate desire to express, "ridiculous" is a bit harsh and not at all in the spirit of why Jer' created multimadrid. If your first gut reaction is to piss in someone's Cheerios, go to one of the Yahoo boards. By all means, disagree to your heart's content, God knows I enjoy the sparring with you. But try a little more tact would ya?? geeeez

I think that this thread is about solidarity. The western world is certainly in unity against terrorism, but this thread just shows the significant difference between the socialist idea of dealing with threat and the non-socialist way. I have to say that I believe in being proactive, in standing up and going after my past and (guaranteed) future attackers. The non-world powers will be the safer for it, too.

I'm going to alienate myself from a Madrid-loving board for standing up against posters deadset on bashing and insulting Spainards for exercising democracy?

The majority of posters I've been arguing against have single digit posts, use kindergarden playground logic, are insulting, and repeat the same unsubstantiated comments over and over.

I'm getting as tired of it as you are of seeing my posts.

Gringa, I respect poeple outright. Their opinions, however I don't respect outright. They have to have a certain measure of thoughtfullness and logic (or kindness) to them before I respect them. If someone is of an opinion opposed to mine but backs it up with facts, logic, and thought and is willing to debate it (even fiercely) then I will respect it. If someone just prattles off something like "they don`t understand negotiations and talk, they only understand violence" while ignoring the examples of Northern Ireland, Palestine (during Clinton's administration), and other negotiations, their opinion is not going to be treated with much respect.

Can someone please explain what Iraq has to do with the "terrorists" anyway? You people prattle on about "fighting the terrorists" and "standing up to the terrorists" and "wars against terrorists" and on and on and you have done nothing to improve the situation. The States, instead of trying to find the 50 or so criminals responsible for all these terrorist actions, attacks a completely different country and destroys it, a country which has nothing at all to do with any terrorism. I won't even go into the spew of lies rolled out to justify this attack. So Spain doesn't want to be part of this nonsense? Good for them. They will get back to hunting down the criminals with diligent police work and not by bombing civilians.

quote:

originally posted by TJGuy:
[qb]

quote:

originally posted by Hair:
[qb] . [/qb]

hmmm...i didn't get this one, Hair. Place in the world? Just not sure what that means. Sorry.

One of the things that keeps spinnin' around in my head is that Spain was already involved in this thing with Al-Queda years before M-11. Unless the network and cable news are blowing smoke, Spain was a bridgehead to the U.S. 9/11 attacks - with money and/or people involved in the attack being funneled through Spain. I understand all the passion focused on M-11 but Spain's fight with Al-Queda began years ago - not when Aznar decided to send Spanish troops into Iraq. [/qb]

Spaniards aren't trying to play God and exterminate others. They recognize that they are human beings just like every other group of people on the planet.

I think smoke has been blown at you. Spain's problems with al quaeda goes back centuries but the M-11 was a direct result of its support of the U.S..

Are you suggesting that the Spanish government helped al quaeda during 9-11?
I thought that group learned to fly at U.S. flight schools? Didn't we offer food and nice warm accommodations prior to? puhhlease!

quote:

originally posted by ToniG:
[qb] I think that this thread is about solidarity. The western world is certainly in unity against terrorism, but this thread just shows the significant difference between the socialist idea of dealing with threat and the non-socialist way. I have to say that I believe in being proactive, in standing up and going after my past and (guaranteed) future attackers. The non-world powers will be the safer for it, too. [/qb]

Not true. Russia, during its "socialist" past, has dealt with these same terrorists, in the same way that bush is doing today.

I agree that each country should defend itself. Since we were attacked, I believe that we have the right to bring justice to the attackers. Iraq however is a different story. If you're going to go after every nation that you view as a threat then you have to go after china and russia and not just play tough guy or politics with the weak ones.

Hair wrote...

quote:

Terrorists/muslims do have an entirely different set of values and that's where the problem exists.

dangerous statement Hair!!! terrorsist are not necessarily muslims and vice-versa. a blanket statement like that is NOT good.

FYI: the koran does not have cold blooded mass murder as a "value", in fact, the taking of a life is not justified for ANY reason under islam.

saludos,
jer...

quote:

originally posted by Laurencio:
[qb] Can someone please explain what Iraq has to do with the "terrorists" anyway? You people prattle on about "fighting the terrorists" and "standing up to the terrorists" and "wars against terrorists" and on and on and you have done nothing to improve the situation. The States, instead of trying to find the 50 or so criminals responsible for all these terrorist actions, attacks a completely different country and destroys it, a country which has nothing at all to do with any terrorism. I won't even go into the spew of lies rolled out to justify this attack. So Spain doesn't want to be part of this nonsense? Good for them. They will get back to hunting down the criminals with diligent police work and not by bombing civilians. [/qb]

It has NOTHING to do with iraq! Bush has decided to play playground politics with iraq, avenge the attempt on his father's life, take their oil, and build his legacy (which I think has backfired). Even some of his own people have turned on him. He'll be voted out of office soon.

quote:

originally posted by jer:
[qb] Hair wrote...

quote:

Terrorists/muslims do have an entirely different set of values and that's where the problem exists.

dangerous statement Hair!!! terrorsist are not necessarily muslims and vice-versa. a blanket statement like that is NOT good.

FYI: the koran does not have cold blooded mass murder as a "value", in fact, the taking of a life is not justified for ANY reason under islam.

saludos,
jer... [/qb]

Jer, I understand that. The terrorists of which I speak, however, happen to be muslims. I've never justified terrorism.

ok Hair, guess either you did not put that the right way or i misinterpreted it.

saludos,
jer...